Rutgers @ Michigan, 10/28/17, Noon, Eastern, BTN/Stream BTN2Go

[froot loops]

If you take a 10,000 foot look at it, a couple years ago, it was conventional wisdom that 2016 was the year that they were setup to contend due to the amount of great seniors. 2017 was looked to be a year where they might struggle, even Hannibal said that. The early part of the season blew that apart because of the defense, it shouldn't have, championships aren't won in September.

One if the problems is Harbaugh's talent to dominate the headlines, it is great when you are winning but it can become a millstone when you stumble.

[Cody_Russell]

But when M wins their next 3 games ... 8-2 record ... then knocks off either Wisconsin OR Ohio State ... then wins their bowl game???
Poof, 10-3 final record. Outside of Speight, 2018 is looking to be a great year.

Plenty of season remaining with three cupcakes coming up next. Rutgers sucks ... have you seen Minnesota's QB Croft ... Maryland's 3rd string QB Burgerschlager is horrible.

[Jeff Buchanan]

.......I am starting to see some expectations getting dialed back to a very disappointing new baseline.

Actually, I see more posts by apologists than I do realists. The apologist always have the same echo chamber excuses mixed in with the legitimate ones but those are typically on Harbaugh's shoulders, IMO (e.g., OL recruiting in 2015).

......There is something about being the coach at Michigan that seems to make new coaches think that they can just waltz in and win with half-assed schemes and assistant hires. Michigan coaches don't coach like they are young, desperate, and hungry. They coach like they expect some magic pixie dust to turn shit into gold. The weird offensive staff arrangement that we have is an example of this. Would Harbaugh ever do something like that at Stanford? Or would he put his nephew in charge of the running backs? Probably not.

I really don't believe that Harbaugh fails to understand that it takes hard work to achieve goals, especially, CFB championship. Nothing he has said since being the HC at M suggests that he thinks it's easy at M because it's M. He voices respect for Michigan and what the school represents and that football, for many students fans and alums is the front porch to the U. I'm also hesitant to criticize his organizational skills or his hires. I just don't think we know enough to do that. JMO.

Harbugh's biggest problem right now is that he shit on some of his peers and sports media people with his mouth (no surprise). He's also been very vocal and out front on the recruiting front and college football in general. So it should not surprise anyone that people will start circling like vultures when he stumbles and doesn't coach Michigan to the top or, in more stark terms, doesn't deliver on the hype he and his fans have created.

I think Froot made the point that M fans, in general, don't know what championships are. There's are expectations that may be unjustified. Even older fans who lived the Schembechler years never saw an NC from him and the BT Title during his tenure as M's HC was always a battle between osu and M in the final game of the season. Bo won some, he lost some.

LC did win an NC in '97 and did dominate osu during the Cooper years so, fans of that era do understand winning in that context. However, 9-3 was a constant, 11-1 an outlier and 12-0 happened ONCE. ONCE. Michigan has never been a regular NC contender such as osu under Hayes, now meyer, Alabama under Bryant and now Saban, OU under Switzer, USC under Robinson and later Carroll and others I've probably forgotten about. M has traditionally been an also ran in that category loosing games that might have assured an NC more frequently than they won them.

So, given the history of M football in the modern era (since the 50's), I guess one could argue that bringing Harbaugh to M with the expectation that he was going to rise right to the top and win the NC, beating all M's usual rivals on the way is just, well, unrealistic. I can probably list a wide range and number of circumstances why but, then, everyone reading this would argue those are continuing excuses that Harbaugh was expected to over come. Well, he hasn't and the reality is that he might not.

That does not mean that I don't continue to wish ...... and wish is the operative word here ..... that Harbuagh will succeed in meeting his and those of M fans expectations for championships. That kind of approach, for me, gives me a bit more tolerance for failure and a more realistic approach than most I'd suspect.

[iam416]

The Barkley-McCray thing was perplexing. I mean, everyone knew it was a potential disaster. I even figured they'd get at least 1 big play from it. They probably should have another 3 or 4, but Barkley dropped one and fell down on another.

But, what's perplexing is that you KNOW that's a fucking disaster and you're still like, yeah, man...let's blitz the shit out of them, play C1 behind it and keep our fingers crossed. I think that's poor.

As an analog, IU was torching OSU in C1 with Simmie Cobbs, back shoulder throws and stupid good catches. In the 2nd H, Schiano went way more zone and they didn't do crap. I'm not sure if M does better losing some of its aggression, but it seems like there is literally no Plan B.

[froot loops]

My personal opinion on programs that have consistent national championship contenders need to be really good at recruiting, really good at developing players, have a really good staff and have a conference that is down. The last one might be the most important. In the old days a lot of those perennials could be independent or in a bad conference.

Right now Alabama is the team, but their dominance has coincided with a downturn from the SEC mania of the mid-aughts.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Not sure they were 100% C-1. We'll see on the UFR.

Still, I agree with you in principle and think this is a valid criticism of how Brown approached PSU.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Michigan 56
Rutgers 9

[Hannibal]

We're not talking about Harbaugh being unable to compete for a national championship every year at this point. He can't even compete for a division championship ever year. He can't even win the fucking state championship when MSU is better than bad. The program is falling short of very reasonable expectations. Again.

[Hannibal]

Lloyd was a mediocre coach who lethargically let the program rot. His faults don't need to be recounted here, but it's worth pointing out that he lost five games in 2001 and 2005, and then he lost four games in his final season, with one of those coming to you-know-who. My point is -- three losses were the most common outcome for Lloyd, but he ended up higher than that twice as often (six times) as he ended up below (three times). The RichRod and Hoke eras caused a lot of people to revisit the Carr era with some rose-colored glasses, but he is not underappreciated, and at least a small share of the blame for the RichRod disaster can be laid at his feet. You can see this partially in his completely nonexistent coaching tree.

[froot loops]

People will look on the Carr era fondly because he delivered. One national championship, 5 conference championships and a very good record in big games. If you discredit his sterling record, than it is really hard to justify the big expectations.

[Hannibal]

His record wasn't sterling. It was okay.

Mark Dantonio has actually had more seasons with 2 or fewer losses than Lloyd, in 10 seasons vs. Lloyd's 13. And Mork took over a program in very sorry shape, whereas Lloyd took over a team that had been pulling in perennial Top 5 recruiting classes (per the ranking services of the day).

At any rate, I don't look a whole lot at Lloyd's record as an example of where we need to be. I look at what comparable competition around the country has done lately. Let's postpone the discussion about how unreasonable we are for expecting Harbaugh to win a national championship every year until such a time that this debate is actually relevant. Beating rivals half the time and finishing higher than third in the Big Ten East would be a good start.

[Hannibal]

Oh, and..

UM 19, Rutgers 13.

I could easily see Rutgers pulling the upset.

[froot loops]

Mark Dantonio is a very good coach as is Urban Meyer and apparently Franklin is. I was fully prepared for a Spartan loss to Indiana by the time the 4th quarter started. It's tough to compete, winning the Big Ten right now is a grind. There is no magic Easy Button.

One thing about Dantonio is he took over a program in shambles, but a program that gets more talent than it's given credit for. I have been a fan since 1990 and they have always been pretty good about fielding a good defense, good receivers and a good QB.

You guys have fell off at the QB position for the last decade.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Oh, and..

UM 19, Rutgers 13.

I could easily see Rutgers pulling the upset.

Are you trying to challenge AA and Talent for the forum's biggest sandbaggus ignoramus?

[Hannibal]

I don't sandbag and I have yet to be wrong in the negative direction since the season began.