Michigan @ PSU, 10/21/17, 7:30p Eastern, ABC/Stream Watch ESPN

[maxreturn]

Max, Michigan was a refjob away from a road win in Columbus and playing in the playoffs last year. I know that it's a bottom-line profession, but it's awfully hard to just call the guy a bust when the team endured the bullshit it did that day. I'm really disappointed with how things have gone this year, but Harbaugh's not going to follow up a few decades of excellent with a sudden bust. It's unfortunate how it's gone down, and sports are where one goes in life to kill any sort of belief in karma, but I don't think you can let, ultimately, random bullshit, be the most important variable in evaluating the situtation.

In his first three years at Stanford he was 4-8, 5-7 & 8-5, hardly the stuff of legends but progress nonetheless. In his last year at Stanford he was 12-1. In his first two years at UM he's 10-3 and if things continue the way they are I think that's the best we can hope for this year. If he loses to OSU again this year that means he's 1-2 against Dantonio and 0-3 against Meyer. He was hired to compete with elite coaches and for championships. My fear is that this is as good as it gets with Harbaugh.

[iam416]

M fans love, love, LOVE the big upset of USC. I mean...HARBAUGH!!!!

Personally, I always found the game that Oregon absolutely smoked Andrew Luck and his 12-1 Stanford team more instructive.

[WingsFan]

That right, I thought we we were getting the "what your deal?" Harbaugh - the guy who 'gets it'.

[Jeff Buchanan]

....... yet, Stanford under David Shaw (Harbaugh's OC when he was HC there) continues with great success when the right dudes, i.e., talent, are on the roster.

You and I don't need to continue to argue the value of a particular style of CFB offenses. We both know where we each stand. I too like the dual threat QB, I also think it's easier to coach spready offenses but highly QB dependent offenses have their drawbacks just like Pro-Style offenses (see 2017 FSU and some of Kelley's ND offenses among others).

Bottom line, your point in the post above is well understood and is well taken.

[iam416]

Yeah, it's not an offensive philosophy point. It was the game of the year in the P12 and HARBAUGH had his best team. They went into Eugene, opened up a 21-3 lead early in the 2nd and then got their doors absolutely blown off.

The USC wasn't a "big game" -- it was a historic upset, but not a big game. HARBAUGH!!!! is far more likely to be playing really good teams with lots on the line than playing teams as a 40 point underdog.

[Jeff Buchanan]

ahhhhh ...... got it. Missed your point there.

Are you suggesting Harbaugh is not great when there is a lot at stake?

[WingsFan]

That's right

[paul daugherity]

So far that has been how his teams have performed. He is what his record is.

[iam416]

Are you suggesting Harbaugh is not great when there is a lot at stake?

That would require a larger sample size than just that game. I think the Oregon game was more instructive than the USC game, but it's not conclusive in any way.

However, if you look at this record against Oregon, the Seahawks, Sparty, Penn State and Ohio State then the conclusion is that he's probably in the realm of average -- certainly not "great."

[Jeff Buchanan]

OK, is it that he chokes for big games? Poorly prepared because of over-confidence that is not justified? Shitty play-calls when things get tight? Or, is it because he just doesn't have the horses on the roster to get the job done against well coached teams with a modicum of talent?

I don't think it's supportable to draw the conclusion that Harbaugh chokes in big games.

Edit ...... this post was directed at WingsFan. We agree. Sample size too small.

[iam416]

I wouldn't say choke. He's won some and lost some. That said, I do think you're able to say he hasn't been "great" in big games.

The points you make about the circumstances for each game make it harder to asses. That said, you could probably look his team's performance in those games against the point spread and figure out how his teams measured up against expectations. That would do much to eliminate the talent gap. Sample size would do much to eliminate fluky wins/losses.

But, my original point was that I never really found much value in the huge upset of USC.

[WingsFan]

Harbaugh puckers in these big games.

All his flaws as well as his teams flaws are exposed in these big games. Let me give you an example. Last year Michigan is blowing state out. Speight throws a int on a wheel route to open the third. Instead of Harbaugh keeping the peddle down he’s goes into a shell allowing state to make the score respectable, when he should have hung 65 on them. Same thing in Iowa, you get a late int you can seal the game and he goes peppers wildcat on first down loses 6 yards. Ends up going three and out and the rest us history.

When the chips are down in big games, find a way to lose is the MO. It’s always something... all phases, coaching, etc. Can’t make the tackle, can’t run the ball, can’t catch a snap and punt... all magnified by having gunners on punt team with no returner back for opposition, calling play action on 4th and 11, wasting challenges and TOs over and over again...

Harbaugh isn’t a killer. By proxy his team aren’t killers. They are a bunch of individuals sort of like Harbaugh. Michigan football identity is win the off season and “recruiting”, but not on the field.

[Hannibal]

Harbaugh will likely always struggle in big games because his scheme on offense requires dominant athletes at just about every position.

He also clearly does not take MSU as seriously as they take us. In that, he is keeping with tradition.

[hack]

I don't know if he puckers or turtles or anything like that, but I do know for sure that Ohio State had a much more intelligent approach to taking risks last November than Michigan did. Meyer bided his time and had a system that he'd set in stone before gameday, so he didn't have to trust his whims in real time. Harbaugh was doing the opposite of what is called turtling, and had he never had done so the refs would have been powerless to impact the game as they did.

That said, he's 2-1 aginst D'antonio and 1-2 against Meyer if the luck factors even go 50-50 in those 6 games. So it's clearly too small a sample size to draw any conclusions, but I do think the weakest link in his coaching I've seen so far is in-game risk calls.

[THE_WIZARD_]

HARBAUGH!!!!