Michigan @ Indiana, 10/14/17, Noon ET, ABC/ESPN 3

[UMStan White]

Too much antics from Harbaugh (diving into pools, spending the night at a recruit's homes, taking team to FLA and Rome, wearing Walmart khakis, etc, etc, etc) He is paid to coach and win, not indulge in self-promotion. Brady Hoke doing a better job than Harbaugh at this point? Time for the circus and its clown to lower the tent and clear out. Oh yeah and by the way, this week is a loss.

[UMStan White]

"The players post game remarks indicate they think all their goals are still in front of them. One loss doesn't erase the possibility of achieving them. "

Time to give it a rest Jeff. You don't believe it can happen and neither does anyone else. What would you expect the team to say after getting their asses handed to them by a top rival at home? We've tanked the season?. Name one team in the history of the game who hasn't said the same trite thing after such a loss? That is, of course, if the team's "goals" are to become "bowel eligible" and play a MAC team at Ford Filed).

This team is headed towards a 6-6 season, or at best a 7-5 season (losses to IU, PSU, Wisky, and OSU: wins against Maryland and Rutgers with the toss-up being Minn)

[iam416]

Buchanan:

Two things jump out to me from that post -- which I appreciate, especially given it's brevity relative to your standard efforts (heh): (1) the tone is correct; it isn't time to jump off buildings, but (2) if it is correct that the coaches called a good game then M just got flat beat by Sparty -- well, both offenses were thoroughly whipped.

Let's also make no mistake -- Sparty drilled M's offense all game. They gave up an opening drive that predictably stuttered in the red zone, a remarkably short field drive and two end of half/game frantic stuff drives. Somewhere in the 2nd Q it became crystal clear, at least to me, that M couldn't move the ball. End of story.

So, if the coaching calls/system/etc are fine, then they just got flat out whipped by a bunch of very Sparty kids. And that lasers to the core of the M fan being and its faith in HARBAUGH!!!! -- that this bullshit would end; that HARBAUGH!!!! would recruit like mad and out-talent Sparty and out-coach Sparty and not give one inch -- certainly never apologize for nonsense. It was clear on Saturday that that particular "it is written" article of faith is dubious. That's devastating to some and ought to be somewhat concerning to all.

Also concerning is another article of faith -- that HARBAUGH!!! can turn any QB into an all-star.

So, I really get the anger. This game seems like the first time that the legend of HARBAUGH!!!! is cast in some doubt. If you were on that train then it's a tough one. They'll come back to your cold rationality (or, perhaps, irrational exuberance) But, it's tough.

Incidentally, I stopped poo-pooing Sparty after 2015. Those MFers will always, always play OSU (and M) lights out. Even when they were dogshit last year and pulling fats kids from Chem classes to start at DT, I knew they'd be a giant pain in the ass, and they were. As I was watching the game, I was thinking, man, it's going to suck playing them AND I'm really starting to dislike those fucks.

Godspeed against the HOOSIER! They finally settled on a starting QB, which is good. He's not a great passer (or even good), but he's dual threat! He has some talent at WR/TE, so if he can make some passes they might score 14-17. Defensively -- I mean, you watched them against OSU -- M has to -- HAS TO -- be able to run the ball. If they can't run against IU then it's time to push the panic button.

[Cody_Russell]

Today im pissed.

Through 31 games at Michigan:

Harbaugh: 24-7 record, 1-1 bowl record, 1-4 vs rivals.

Hoke: 24-7 record, 1-1 bowl record, 2-2 vs rivals.

True, but the difference is Harbaugh will not run M into the dumpster. M might finish 9-3 and 8-4 this season (excluding postseason), but things will be better starting in 18. So much youth and there hasn't been a good QB yet. Once Speight/ O'Korn/ Malzone move on, the Peters/ McCaffrey / Milton era provides so much more upside.

[WingsFan]

Talent, you can analyze the game and the coach too, but you don't live here. I'm waiting on my driver right now and I know the first thing he is going to say. And 97.1 will be on the radio, I'm a cool boss and really don't want to be a dick.

[AlabamAlum]

Nick Saban was *NOT 26-1 in years two and three.












(*It was 26-2)

[WingsFan]

Sorry

[paul daugherity]

Talent has it right. Harbaugh was supposed to end the out coached and outperformed issues that were present with Hoke and RichRod. There is no evidence of improvement in Year 3, only evidence of regression (on offense). So yeah, people are aggravated and frustrated.

[froot loops]

That kid from Chem 105 was not fat, just heavy boned.

[Rocky Bleier]

Three issues:

1. Inability to recruit better O-linemen. I expected this to improve greatly given the guys he had at Stanford. Hoke left this position group in bad shape, but he's been gone for 3 years.

2. Quarterbacks. We saw the improvement in Jake Rudock. I was never high on Al Borges recruit, Wilton Speight, but he showed improvement last year as well. O'Korn was another desperate attempt to fill the position after Hoke left only Speight, Morris, and Malzone. Neither Speight nor O'Korn has shown much this season, but both are working behind the same meh O-line. Peters and McCaffrey were both highly regarded, but neither are apparently ready. Why is Peters not better than either Wilton or JOK at this point?

3. Recruiting. Good classes the last two years, but not so much at OT. This year's class is currently not as highly regarded. Why? Has the national dislike of Harbaugh's "antics" had an influence? Is he no longer viewed as a coaching god? Is Michigan simply losing players to big money offers? My hope is that an 8-4 season does not effect recruiting too negatively. Harbaugh will have to sell it as an opportunity.

[Jeff Buchanan]

.......(1) The tone is correct; it isn't time to jump off the building

Appreciate what is being said here by an observer looking at things a bit more rationally and from the outside than the typical Michigan fan after a loss to the Spartans.

Like I’ve said at least 3X post game and I’ll say it again, any bad in this game is exaggerated by to whom the loss occurred. If M had lost a game, at home, under similar conditions to say, Minnesota or Wisconsin, the response would have been, shit happens.

Instead we have, “Harbaugh has checked out/looks disinterested, must be looking at offers from the NFL,” etc. ….. or, “It’s Drevno, fire him.” …… or, one of my favorites, “this team and it’s coaching staff lacks the will and desire to win, Sparty wants it more.”

I’m just not into that kind of thinking. So, thanks for your reasoned assessment.

.......(2) if it is correct that the coaches called a good game then M just got flat beat by Sparty -- well, both offenses were thoroughly whipped.

Well, my view is that M beat themselves by (1) turning the ball over 5X, (2) O-Line play being it’s usual mess and a turnstyle at RT, (3) JOK reverting to the QB that some predicted and expected.

I don’t think we have a clear picture yet whether or not there is a systemic problem with the offense, the scheme embodied by it and the play-calling. There are just too many obviously execution type problems to indict the coaches or the system.

That M was still in this game up until the last play, IMO, shoots down any claim that “M got flat out beat by Sparty.” Sparty survived in classic Dantonio fashion against teams that make more mistakes than they do. It’s pretty simple.

Could M have played more aggressively? Well, I think they came out with a pretty aggressive first possession. My only nit-pic in the redzone was the two low probability throws to the endzone that were dialed up for O'Korn before Nordin kicked the FG. JOK isn't great at the fades and the receivers aren't yet ready to make themselves better targets on those routes or win jump balls. However, in and of themselves, they were not bad calls given MSU's defense of M's run game as the field shortens.

Bottom line for me: I’ll wait for Brian’s UFR this week and, if after thoroughly looking at the game he concludes the play calling makes no sense, I’ll step back and re-evaluate. He did that with Al Borges and I think fairly. I’m going to wait on hammering Drevno for the play calling in this game and probably the next hoping it will get played under better circumstances.

Let's also make no mistake -- Sparty drilled M's offense all game. They gave up an opening drive that predictably stuttered in the red zone, a remarkably short field drive and two end of half/game frantic stuff drives. Somewhere in the 2nd Q it became crystal clear, at least to me, that M couldn't move the ball. End of story…….So, if the coaching calls/system/etc are fine, then they just got flat out whipped by a bunch of very Sparty kids.

I just don’t agree with this. M moved the ball then did something bad. It wasn’t about Sparty “drilling M’s offense,” It was about M screwing up badly enough on a play by play basis to stifle momentum and rhythm.

I don’t know with the kind of certainty other observers seem to be offering post game if this is an indictment of JH’s system (i.e., it’s too complicated/hard to execute well) or it’s the result of a young offense with a bad OL, 18 or 19yo receivers not ready for college ball, or a QB that lost his starting job at Houston and couldn’t beat out Wilton Speight at Michigan.

Readers get the facts, I’ll let readers decide.

And that lasers to the core of the M fan being and its faith in HARBAUGH!!!! -- that this bullshit would end; that HARBAUGH!!!! would recruit like mad and out-talent Sparty and out-coach Sparty and not give one inch -- certainly never apologize for nonsense. It was clear on Saturday that that particular "it is written" article of faith is dubious. That's devastating to some and ought to be somewhat concerning to all.

Not ready to concede this point to you. We are going to disagree and that is because where both of us are coming from. Me, wanting to believe, and you wanting any shred of evidence supporting the fallacy of a belief in HARBAUGH!!!

[Hannibal]

The UFRs are nice, but the conclusions that are drawn from them tend to ignore systemic problems in favor of blaming one or two symptoms.

Today on their podcast they were talking about how John O'Korn still looks like the Freshman John O'Korn. A fifth year senior in his third year under "The QB Whisperer" still looks like a freshman? When guys just "are who they are" and they remain that way, that is the result of shitty coaching.

Buchanan:

Two things jump out to me from that post -- which I appreciate, especially given it's brevity relative to your standard efforts (heh): (1) the tone is correct; it isn't time to jump off buildings, but (2) if it is correct that the coaches called a good game then M just got flat beat by Sparty -- well, both offenses were thoroughly whipped.

Let's also make no mistake -- Sparty drilled M's offense all game. They gave up an opening drive that predictably stuttered in the red zone, a remarkably short field drive and two end of half/game frantic stuff drives. Somewhere in the 2nd Q it became crystal clear, at least to me, that M couldn't move the ball. End of story.

So, if the coaching calls/system/etc are fine, then they just got flat out whipped by a bunch of very Sparty kids. And that lasers to the core of the M fan being and its faith in HARBAUGH!!!! -- that this bullshit would end; that HARBAUGH!!!! would recruit like mad and out-talent Sparty and out-coach Sparty and not give one inch -- certainly never apologize for nonsense. It was clear on Saturday that that particular "it is written" article of faith is dubious. That's devastating to some and ought to be somewhat concerning to all.

Also concerning is another article of faith -- that HARBAUGH!!! can turn any QB into an all-star.

So, I really get the anger. This game seems like the first time that the legend of HARBAUGH!!!! is cast in some doubt. If you were on that train then it's a tough one. They'll come back to your cold rationality (or, perhaps, irrational exuberance) But, it's tough.

Incidentally, I stopped poo-pooing Sparty after 2015. Those MFers will always, always play OSU (and M) lights out. Even when they were dogshit last year and pulling fats kids from Chem classes to start at DT, I knew they'd be a giant pain in the ass, and they were. As I was watching the game, I was thinking, man, it's going to suck playing them AND I'm really starting to dislike those fucks.

I quickly figured out that Harbaugh wouldn't work miracles. But he still had the possibility of being a great coach. That is now very much in doubt, and very disappointing. He is clearly behind Urban Meyer and Mark Dantonio in coaching ability and I would put at least one of Paul Chryst, Jeff Brohm, or James Franklin ahead of him too. He's not going to beat OSU except on extremely rare occasions and Dantonio will own him whenever MSU is decent. The evidence is piling up that Harbaugh does not have great judgement or awareness on offense (e.g. the epic failure of the Pepcat, the clown show on offense this year). He also didn't notice a couple years back that his DC was checked out before3 the OSU assraping. Harbaugh is too old and experienced for this problem to be fixable. He is who he is. A good but not a great coach. So basically John Beilein. Meh.

[Jeff Buchanan]

The UFRs are nice, but the conclusions that are drawn from them tend to ignore systemic problems in favor of blaming one or two symptoms.

When you look at video and there is an unblocked or poorly chipped defender rushing though a gaping hole in the OL where a running back is headed or worse a LB or DE is about to body slam the QB, I don't think you can conclude it's a systemic problem. I suppose you can speculate that it is but I can't buy, on a slam dunk, black and white basis, it's systemic.

Today on their podcast they were talking about how John O'Korn still looks like the Freshman John O'Korn. A fifth year senior in his third year under "The QB Whisperer" still looks like a freshman? When guys just "are who they are" and they remain that way, that is the result of shitty coaching.

I'm not sure about this. I think a case can be made that how a QB sees the field and responds to it over an extended period that this gets baked into the brain and it is hard as hell to change it. We saw Rudock improve dramatically under JH but both Speight and O'Korn just aren't that good. How does it go, you can't put lipstick on a pig or you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

...... Peters is a different animal. If what I've heard is accurate (he has a good skill set but lacks discipline) I can probably understand why JH isn't playing him.

At this point, I'm loath to blame coaching for the QB deficiencies. Not enough solid information for fans to conclude this.

I quickly figured out that Harbaugh wouldn't work miracles. But he still had the possibility of being a great coach. That is now very much in doubt, and very disappointing. He is clearly behind Urban Meyer and Mark Dantonio in coaching ability and I would put at least one of Paul Chryst, Jeff Brohm, or James Franklin ahead of him too. He's not going to beat OSU except on extremely rare occasions and Dantonio will own him whenever MSU is decent. The evidence is piling up that Harbaugh does not have great judgement or awareness on offense (e.g. the epic failure of the Pepcat, the clown show on offense this year). He also didn't notice a couple years back that his DC was checked out before3 the OSU assraping. Harbaugh is too old and experienced for this problem to be fixable. He is who he is. A good but not a great coach. So basically John Beilein. Meh.

You lost me when you put Franklin on the list of coaches better than Harbaugh and same with Chryst. Chryst's career HC record is .643, Harbaug's is .654. At Wisky, Christ is 26-6, Harbaugh is 24-7 coming in to thier respective programs under wildly different circumstances.

I'll grant you on a historical basis Harbaugh trails UFM and Saban. Brohm? No.

OTH I do see some similarities between Beilein and Harbaugh in terms of recruiting and coaching. So, that comparison has merit but, two very different sports. Don't see the point unless you want to call them both average. I don't agree with that,

We're all trying to evaluate M's current circumstance with eyes wide open but if that last pass to Gentry had resulted in a TD and a 16-14 win for M would the criticism of the players and coaches been as harsh?

[THE_WIZARD_]

Stay the course man.

HARBAUGH!!!

[UMStan White]

"but if that last pass to Gentry had resulted in a TD and a 16-14 win for M would the criticism of the players and coaches been as harsh?"

Yes. It still would not have replaced a crap game by a crap offense