Michigan @ Purdue, Saturday, 9/23, 4p Eastern, FOX/Stream FSGo

[iam416]

Well, I'm not sure you need an OL to be elite to be an elite team. I think you need your OL to be good, especially if you have elite players elsewhere. Clemson's OL, e.g., was a mix of elite and poop. The elite kids were really good pretty much from the jump.

Ohio State's 2016 OL, which was at least average, perhaps shading to good for run blocking and not so much for pass blocking, started 3 kids that were 3 years removed from HS or less. They had a nice season, even if they weren't quite elite.

So, here's how I'd look at it -- superstars can start as true frosh, but meh, expecting that is crazy. However, it's not crazy to think that big-time OL can start to play effectively by their 2nd year and be really good or elite by their 3rd.

Now, maybe for what HARBAUGH!!!! wants to do you need an elite OL to be truly successful. Whereas as a team like Clemson builds a serviceable OL and hellacious skill players, maybe HARBAUGH!!!! works that in reverse. But, I will say that if you need ALL units to be elite to have an elite offense, then you're running a dumbfuck offense.

[froot loops]

By now you should have a good line. I'm not sure what the issue is there but it should be better. You shouldn't need 4 to 5 star recruits, I mean it's nice but if you have a good eye for talent you can find guys who produce pretty quickly. It's a place where you can build depth with walkons and changing positions.

Having good skill position players helps, MSU got to the playoffs with a mash unit on the line because Cook was making all kinds of throws right before he got creamed. At one point they had to play a 6'0 tall guy at LT.

[hack]

One thing for sure, I don't expect Drevno to be canned. He was just extended. I think in truth it's a combination of things here. Yes, the line sucks, but, also, Speight had the yips and was going to magnify any line problem, and the WRs are all green. Time will tell if O'Korn is an improvement, but he doesn't have the yips. At least not yet. And his mobility may be a better fit for right now.

[Hannibal]

Now, maybe for what HARBAUGH!!!! wants to do you need an elite OL to be truly successful. Whereas as a team like Clemson builds a serviceable OL and hellacious skill players, maybe HARBAUGH!!!! works that in reverse. But, I will say that if you need ALL units to be elite to have an elite offense, then you're running a dumbfuck offense.

This. And I see that as one of the underlying, long term issues that is going to plague our offense. Thus my (oft-stated) conclusion that we are only going to have an offense that is elite enough to move the ball on Top 20 defenses about once or twice a decade. Picture the 2003 UM offense vs. the 2003 OSU defense. The last time that we legitimately tore up OSU when they were good on defense (unless you count 2006 which -- eh). Steve Breaston, Braylon Edwards, Jason Avant, and the Doak Walker award winner at RB. Fifth year senior starting TE and fith year senior QB. A very mature OL too and some really good playcalling. It was a perfect storm. On our current trajectory, we'll repeat that once or twice a decade.

Our offense does throw in a couple of wrinkles each week that do a decent job of springing some big plays (e.g. the counter pitch that led to the Evans TD). But there is nothing that systematically punishes defenses for their sins or makes a DCs ass pucker on each play. Through a little less than two and a half seasons, I have yet to see a bread-and-butter that works very well. It's either too easy for the defense to load up and stop or it's too hard for the offense to learn well enough to execute.

[hack]

To an extent it's fair to say that JH is cleaning up a big mess left by someone trying to clean up an even bigger mess. Dunno.

[paul daugherity]

That's true Hack. It just seems like he has underrecruited/not recruited enough O-lineman, and the O-line performance is not improving. I could live with it if it was mediocre, but seemed like it was getting better year to year, and improving from game to game. The fact that mistakes continue being made by multiple players game to game is what is so concerning.

[Hannibal]

To an extent it's fair to say that JH is cleaning up a big mess left by someone trying to clean up an even bigger mess. Dunno.

This is the last year that this excuse will have some validty. By year 4, it will be pretty much 100% Harbaugh.

[hack]

OT is a cursed position right now. Newsome was a massive loss. Imagine the line now if we could have shifted Cole to RT instead of back to LT. In recruiting, Devery Hamilton was a huge loss. And JH lost the coin-tons to Georgia for Wilson. It's really a problem.

The fact that mistakes continue being made by multiple players game to game is what is so concerning. - a big fat YES to that. We've really got to see that in the next two weeks.

[WM Wolverine]

Harbaugh's pro-style offense requires good-to-excellent offensive line play. To run the offense the way Harbaugh has tried the last 2-to-3 years, it takes offensive line execution much higher than we've seen this season...

This is year 3 of Harbaugh but just year 2 of his recruits. OL has been the missing piece in his offense. Of Harbaugh's 6 losses at M; 3 of them M was an offensive first-down away from putting the game away if they could run the ball when the opposing defense knew they were going to run.

I agree with the sentiment that it takes a pipeline/system along with experience & talent to build a good-to-excellent offensive line. To get the OL to be good enough, it's going to take another year, or two. A passing or read-option spread offense imo isn't as predicated on needing a very good OL. I hoped Pep Hamilton would help implement a more passing-based attack yet I still see M running tons of 2 TE sets that tip our hand to running the ball against 8-9 in the box.

[hack]

It sure seems true that this system is more reliant on OL than others.

[AlabamAlum]

I have not watched a lot of M games. What is the issue? Pass pro? Run blocking? Penalties?

[WM Wolverine]

Pass blocking, run blocking, blitz pick up... Most everything.

[Jeff Buchanan]

The principle problem, AA, is killer missed assignments. This results in free rushers. QB die. Exhibit A: Wilton Speight. RB die. Pass-pro and run blocking are equally afflicted.
Pass-pro is easier so, a shade to run blocking as being the worst problem.

M has faced 2 for sure, maybe 3 very aggressive defenses (AF & Purdue). Purdue had 5 sacks and 11 tackles for loss after having 1 sack an no TFLs before that.

The best observers think the problem is two fold: (1) Bad line calls, (2) Bad post snap reads..... i.e., bad communication. We can't pin this down from our vantage point as fans.

The evidence for this is (1) The number of unblocked free rushers, QB sacks, TFLs, (2) defenses that employ these techniques and do them well, slant, stunt and twist, will eat M's OL alive. Experts with experience say this is from poor post snap reads and knowing what to do when you see these things.

To review. There are experience, maturity and vision issues across the entire line with the exception of maybe Mason Cole at LT. Bredeson at LG is good to glaringly bad. The C, RG and RT make the majority of identifiable WTFs according to knowledgeable people that review video and report on it to us fans.

[Mainevent]

The missed communications/assignments are plain to see. But even when they are just straight up blocking the guy in front of them, the OL is too often getting beat in man for man. Granted, teams dumping 8 in the box all the time and LBs shooting the running lanes is not helping. That's where they need to be able to beat teams with the passing game.

It seems like on most of the early play action they do is to get that shot down the field for the big play. But I'd like to see them focus on hitting the TEs on intermediate routes early in those situations. Give those LBs more to think about.

[WM Wolverine]

When their backs were up against the wall but not until then, they actually did do that, Mainevent. In the second half when everyone knew M wasn't able to run the ball, the offense started to throw the ball on 1st/2nd and was predictably far more successful...

With O'Korn in there, the offense went from a PA/deep route scheme (high reward, low success) to a crossing route/mesh (easier reads & passes) offense. Unsure if this was due to O'Korn in there or Drevno/Hamilton seeing something from the opposition.

Speight struggles with the short, medium routes and mightily with the blitz. He needed very good pass protection, O'Korn should be better when the pocket collapses as it does most the time.

Saturday is a tough test for M's offensive line, play calling, and JOK. We're lucky to have had a bye week and be at home.