Michigan Football, Team 138, 2017 Season.

[Jeff Buchanan]

....... here's my take:

Patterson IS a lot like JOK but he has WAY more raw talent. He basically does the same sorts of things JOK did: bails too early from the pocket. Looks down when he starts to feel pressure. Has accuracy issues and under pressure will do dumb things trying to make something happen.

The video makes me ask how well will Patterson do in M's scheme given what M wants to do. Will he be constrained by M's scheme and not perform well in it or will he flourish in it?

There are plenty of PAs in Ole Miss's offense. I would not say the RPO is featured but Ole Miss in 2018 was not a run oriented offense. That's going to be something Patterson has to adapt to that Peters doesn't. He's been playing in it, including live action, for two years.

Peters knows M's offense better than Patterson does. I'm in no way counting Peters out. Peters is taller (something Patterson suffers from), Peters has equivalent pocket presence if not a bit better (at least in JH's scheme and passing game). There's nothing wrong with Peters arm or his accuracy when he has the time to throw; that is true for Patterson as well so, no great advantage can be accorded to Patterson over Peters at this point.

It's going to be very good competition. Whoever reacts best to that is going to start.

[Hannibal]

Meh City, USA. Freshman Houston O'Korn looked better than UM senior O'Korn too.

[hack]

Peters needs to be more accurate.

[Detroit Dan]

If I were a M fan I would have a really, really hard time excusing away very much of this past season.

Yeah, whatever we tried with the passing game was a disaster. The injuries hurt, but neither Speight nor Peters prior to the injuries were getting the job done. The running game did improve though, which was a pleasant surprise.

We just have to be patient. Comparing 3rd year Harbaugh to 3rd year UFM is depressing, but the prospects for 4th year Harbaugh and beyond are still good.

[froot loops]

The pro style offense as a fragile flower that needs the right environment is a little much.

[hack]

The more people you put on the line the more missed assignments you risk. But I don't blame you for saying that. Your coach doesn't run a spread and gets the most out of his offense, so fair enough.

[froot loops]

My personal opinion is Harbaugh runs the ball control offense and puts the athletes on the defensive side of the ball. That approach really helps your defense.

Pro style offense doesn't mean you have to put a lot of guys on the line. The standard pro set can be 3 wideputs, a TE and a RB.

The problem is less scheme and more talent evaluation for the skill position players. A better QB and RB would have worked wonders for you guys. On the defensive side if the ball there is always some game breaker, but not on the offensive side of the ball.

[hack]

Oh I agree with that. I don't think the scheme Harbaugh runs is really and truly going to determine the number of conference or national championships he wins. It seems to me that you can get up to speed faster and easier running the spread. It's true that an increase in gaps is an increase in potential missed assignments, and that's Harbaugh's way. He like the opposite of a spread, even if it doesn't necessarily mean drop-back/pro-style. He likes having more beef in tight spaces. But, ultimately, Harbaugh has proven that he can run that system successfully, and will again. It's easy to forget that he inherited a 5-7 team with unbalanced classes. It's easy to imagine the difference this year with Newsome. Or if Logan Tulley-Tillman hasn't screwed up and had developed as a top-100 OT was expected to. Or if Devery Hamilton didn't decommit too late for Harbaugh to nab an alternative. Etc. etc. I have no problem with his pro-style attack in the future. I expected more clock hogging and less deep ball, but if this is what he things he can win with that's cool. It's a shame a few bad breaks haven't produced some big wins while he's scaling up, and have prevented a third-year liftoff, but it's going to happen regardless of scheme.

[hack]

You know, I guess I never thought of this, but Michigan didn't have a WR coach last year? Fisch did that previously, right? Seems unwise not to have a proper position coach when all you've got is freshmen and Perry.

[Hannibal]

College football has too much attrition and turnover to expect to be able to win with a system that only upperclassmen can run. Guys take redshirts must less often and they are transferring or leaving early for the NFL earlier than they used to. And in Harbaugh's case, I'm not seeing any upside over what Lincoln Riley or Kevin Wilson typically run.

Not having a WR coach looks to have been an awful decision. Not only were all of our guys young, but it was a ridiculously talented freshman class. We pissed away a third of DPJ's career this year. Outside of the Wisky game, which we lost by 14 points, he had absolutely no impact this year. In our two close losses at home, he didn't have a single catch.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I agree with your first point. I've spent three years defending Harbaugh's Pro-Style Power O. I'm not sure that is a defensible thing to do any longer.

There are still people that think certain programs that have access to college or nearly college ready, big offensive linemen and the kinds of skill players needed to run a pro-style passing attack can be successful with pro-style offenses. Frankly, I think M might be one of those programs but there are a lot of natural negative recruiting factors M has to overcome to be in that group.

So, I see Harbaugh recognizing this .... or at least I envision that he is ...... and will hybrid his current approach. Patterson offers a good chance to do that but I'll believe it when I see it. Brian at mgo seemed to be remarkably ebullient about JH's run game and how unique it was with all the messing it was reportedly doing with motion and keys in 2018. Was it? Not really - 186/#43, 4.5/#53 and 2.9ypc last 3 games.

On your second point if M's QBs had been any good - and I'm not sure I'd include Speight if he had not been injured - and if Black hadn't been injured early, I think we'd have a better take on the talented WR group for 2018.

[froot loops]

The thing is, if you want to run something that Lincoln Riley or Kevin Wilson would run because its easier to implement you go get them. I don't think it is and I think it would affect your defense.

For better or worse you hire Harbaugh, this is what you are going to get. I would be wary of him delving into spread type shit. You were subject a year of the Pepcat. When I said you put your athletes on the defensive side if the ball, look at Peppers. He was a luxury on defense, they used him as a gadget. Jack of all trades, master of none. That dude was electric running the ball, he should have been a running back right away. That would have changed the trajectory of that offense last year. But they put him in the wildcat, that was a fad from 10 years ago.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Froot, I appreciate your post. Here are my thoughts:

I think most of us here know exactly what we got with Harbaugh but, I think there are some fair criticisms of what he's done or not done in his first three years. Frankly, I think JH knows what's wrong and what to do about it better than any of us but still ...... it's fun to talk about it.

I don't expect Harbaugh to ever go Air Raid (Leach, Boykin), Read Option Spread (RichRod), Smash Mouth Spread (ufm). I expect him to stay with a Pro-Style offense. Let me be perfectly clear about these definitions. They're moving targets because they have innate variability depending on who the coach is and get changed (Hybrided) all the time - esp. "Spread" type offenses. I posted a decent article from Football Study Hall on The Four Main Schools of Spread Offenses so, that's what I'm using.

Pro-Style offenses have spread concepts. It's never black and white between pure spread offenses and pro-style offenses. NEVER. Complicating factors include the integration of power running and IZ/OZ running within spread offenses and read option or read pass option plays within pro-style offenses. It can be utterly confusing to talk about "what kind of offense is Harbaugh going to run......" without nailing down terms.

The one thing that is not going to change at M under Harbaugh is that he will base out of a NFL pro-style offense best described as some combination of wide receivers, RBs, TEs and sometimes a full back.

His offense is going to be balanced with a slight edge to the power run. There will be some zone running. The passing game will be heavy on the PA and incorporate WRs, TEs, Slot receivers and most prominently, the TE in a WCO passing scheme.

His goal will be to first straight up over-power opponents by first running through gaps or zones and passing to keep defenses honest. When that isn't working (DCs are winning the chess match on early downs), he'll try variations of his basic offense on standard downs (e.g. roll-outs and waggles, RPO, sweeps, screens, constraints and counters, trickeration).

So, my point is, JH isn't going to experiment with spready offenses (e.g., Air raid or Read Option) as much as he is going to expand by the hybridization of his NFL Pro-Style offence. In this way, he'll account for the differences between the college and pro game something, IMO, he is grappling with right now.

I think there are only a handful of coaches that can meld the college and pro game well to produce championships (and players who are high draft picks) at the elite or wannabe elite programs .... and I'd add that the best HS players are looking for programs that can do this.

So, It's a big deal to be able to consistently win by melding the best out of both the college and pro offenses. Doing that and then consistently demonstrate getting into and winning the CFP draws the best HS talent to your program. Success feeds success.

Harbaugh has yet to demonstrate he can do that but I'm pretty sure he will. He's one stubborn fuck and he's pissed off right now that he hasn't clearly demonstrated he can.

[iam416]

And in Harbaugh's case, I'm not seeing any upside over what Lincoln Riley or Kevin Wilson typically run.

I'm really impressed with what Reilly does. For one, their based read play is the counter tre blocked. Fantastic. Second, he schemed the shit out of OSU defense with the fucking fullback/H-back of all things. And he has Mayfield.

[WingsFan]

Amani Toomer harsh criticism of Harbaugh


[ame]https://youtu.be/A6Qb41DUHto[/ame]