Michigan Football, Team 138, 2017 Season.

[Hannibal]

The TD vulture is back for 2017.

Who is that?

[WingsFan]

Khalid Hill returning for his fifth year

[edindetroit]

Nation's No. 3 OLB Drew Singleton commits to Michigan football

[Hannibal]

Khalid Hill returning for his fifth year

Was that ever in doubt?

[WingsFan]

Not really, was answering your question who the TD vulture was.

[Wellington_beefhouser]

Will Harbaugh be back in 2017? LA, Indy (soon to be), and SF (soon to be) will all be potential landing spots for Harbaugh at the end of today. He loves college but his heart is in the pros. The Lombardi Trophy to Harbaugh is like the ring in Lord of the Rings to Golem...so precious.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Seriously?

He's not finished here.

Yes, he'll be back.

[Jeff Buchanan]

After the "two best teams in the BIG 10" lost to FSU and Clemson - the osu loss being stupifyingly bad - we can look ahead to what changes are in store for both osu and M. There WILL be changes.

If osu brings in Kevin Wilson as OC, you'll have a ready made fit for what ufm wants to do. Unlike the ufm/tim beck shared offensive play calling duties, with these two appearing to be playing off different sheets of music, that won't be the case with Wilson on board. Huge up grade, IMO.

Hannibal has laid out M's march to mediocrity in 2017 and going forward. I don't agree with him and here's why. We have no idea what goes on in practice nor do we know what the coaches know about player in game performance. While it's true we can judge the end result, and OL play along with the run game is not good, IMO, that cannot be the basis for the kind of also-ran performance Hanni is predicting for M football.

The thing that grinds me about Hannibal's criticisms is that he believes that underlying back to back 10-3 seasons there is a culture at M of an acceptance of that kind of performance as being fine. He goes on, just like M's Basketball program under John Beilein.

So, I guess Hannibal thinks Jim Harbaugh is fine with 10-3 as the bar. Really? I don't think there is a more energized and competitive football coach on the planet than Harbaugh. And that guy counts more than what any of us might accept as being OK. That's why I reject Hannibal's position in its entirety. How Harbaugh goes about winning the Big Ten and advancing to the CFP along with the elites we can't know. But one thing we do know is that Harbaugh, especially Jim Harbaugh, is not happy with where the football program is. That's enough for me.

[Jeff Buchanan]

To Hannibal's credit in raising issues going forward, I do think there is a reasonable argument that a pro-style, pocket QB - and Wilton Speight is very good in that role - limits an offense to playing 10 guys against 11 defenders. That's because a pro-style QB like Speight in Harbaughffense is not a run threat that the D has to honor.

There is also a reasonable argument that Jim Harbaugh is a traditionalist and a stubborn one at that. It's not likely that you'll see JH pull a Saban and recruit and start first year guys like Jalen Hurts at QB. So, if your Hannibal, that would seem to destine M's offense to mediocrity at best and incapable of bringing in the hardware.

Since Harbaugh is not likely to change his stripes, as outside observers, we can only predict from past performance how Harbaugh might react to the current 10-3 and move it to 12-0. The weak point in Harbaufffense is undeniably the OL. What's not clear is why. Opinions abound. Talent? Drevno? Play calling by a cabal of coaches (JH, Drevno, Fisch) ? That's the problem ..... opinions from outsiders who have no idea what the problem is and I have a problem with that.

When osu's hybrid spread running power shredded M's defense in their meeting in 2015, what did JH do? He hired Don Brown. I think most of us will agree Brown upgraded the defense v spread teams by optimizing the skill sets of the players on the roster. I'd predict he'll do something similar for the offense and the OL and whatever he does, despite any teeth gnashing from the peanut gallery that he's not doing the right things, WILL be what needs to be done.

In Harbaughffense there has to be a deep threat and to obtain that there has to be the ability to protect the QB. There has to be a go to set of running plays that will move the chains. Think about this. Since Harbaugh's arrival, M's OL had neither consistently good OT play nor did they have particularly good interior line play to support a credible running attack v. very good to elite defensive lines. That was the single issue for M's offense in 2016. One could add that M is also missing an elite RB that can hit small holes to produce big runs. This isn't a development issue. RBs like this, the ones' who average > 6 ypc over their careers, are rare. That's because you either have the skill set to do this or you don't. There are just a few of these kinds of RBs historically and across CFB. Therefor, it seems to me, you shade your pro-style or even hybrid offense, not toward the rare, once in 25 years elite RB or QB but to identifying, recruiting and developing an OL that can run and pass block exceptionally well and do this against elite DLs.

Fundamentally, that is what Harbaugh has done and done it successfully over his coaching career. Can this work and bring home championships or is JH an example of a CFB coach failing to evolve, producing mediocre football in the process? I think there is more evidence in support of the view that OL play can improve than there is that Harbaugh is a dolt. There is either a talent or coaching issue if OL development and play in 2015/16 is a measure of that. I can guarantee you that Harbaugh knows exactly what the problem is and we don't at least not within the margins of certainty that he has about the problem.

To me, therefore, assessing Harbaugh's first two seasons is not about accepting 10-3 as the ceiling but rather accepting that Jim Harbaugh absolutely wants championships, knows a lot more about M's football program, where it is and how to fix it to get championships than we as outside observers can ever know. To offer unflattering comparisons to other programs and based on that propose wholesale changes suggests those doing that do.

[iam416]

If you think Hannibal is bad after 20-6, you ought to read OSU forums after 61-6. It's almost unfathomable.

Don Brown will earn his money NEXT season. This year he had a really talented defense from front to back that played almost no really good offensive teams. I say almost because FSU might be pretty good with Dalvin Cook. Next year he won't have the same abundance of talent.

I'm not sold on the "pro-style." I think, as you noted, you disadvantage yourself a bit. I'm mostly convinced of this because Nick Saban made the switch to a hybrid. But, whatever.

At bottom it's still Jimmys and Joes. The thing about M this year is that they didn't really have an offensive strength. They had some really good receiving options, but the QB wasn't dependable enough. They had a mediocre running game, obviously. So there wasn't anything for HARBAUGH to play to when it came to crunch time. I don't think he really had any set of 3-4 plays that were absolute crutches other than working Butt on underneath crossing routes -- which they did really well until they ran into teams with guys who could run with him.

Down the road, the WRs and QBs they're bring in re setting up for a true pro-style offense -- the Patriots type stuff. Whether they get a great RB or not, if you have that QB/WR combo it frees up everything.

[Wellington_beefhouser]

It's championship or bust with Harbaugh. That's about all I need to hear. There's been lots of doom and gloom talk for next year and rightly so with a slew of underclassmen taking over. I, for one, will never count out a Harbaugh coached team because of all the outlined stuff you just posted in the novel above.

[Mainevent]

Disappointing to finish out the year with 3 losses in the last 4 games. Expectations were raised after their play early in the year, but they ended up about right where I expected them to be prior to the season, given I wasn't expecting much out of the QB and was worried about the defensive scheme.

That said, the inability to run the ball and protect the QB were highly worrisome and they got worse as the year went along (or the D's got better/figured out what worked). And the big plays were a problem too. Being as aggressive as Brown wants to be, you can expect that to happen occasionally, but it was a little too often for a top level defense. Hopefully, as the system gets more entrenched at the school and they bring in some better athletes to supplement the handful of great ones they always seem to have.

[Jeff Buchanan]

If you think Hannibal is bad after 20-6, you ought to read OSU forums after 61-6. It's almost unfathomable.

I don't think Hanni is bad, I just disagree with him. It's his kind of cut to the chase, harsh and sometimes absolutely accurate assessments that are the best thing for this forum

Don Brown will earn his money NEXT season. This year he had a really talented defense from front to back that played almost no really good offensive teams. I say almost because FSU might be pretty good with Dalvin Cook. Next year he won't have the same abundance of talent.

Abundance is the operative word. I like M's DTs/NGs. There's some talent there. Same with LBs. CBs and Ss are untested. I think this will change what Brown does in 2017 from what he did in 2016. I pirated this (assumes Peppers will return and I have no evidence that he will):

WDE
1. Chase Winovich (RS Jr.)
2. Carlo Kemp (So.)
3. Shelton Johnson (RS So.)

NG
1. Bryan Mone (RS Jr.)
2. Michael Onwenu (So.)
3. Michael Dwumfour (RS Fr.)
rs: Phillip Paea (Fr.)

DT
1. Maurice Hurst (RS Sr.)
2. Rashan Gary (So.)
3. James Hudson (Fr.)

SDE
1. Rashan Gary (So.)
2. Lawrence Marshall (RS Jr.)
3. Luiji Vilain (Fr.) / Ron Johnson (RS Fr.)
rs: Corey Malone-Hatcher (Fr.)

LB
1. Jabrill Peppers (RS Jr.)*
2. Noah Furbush (RS Jr.)
3. Jared Wangler (RS Jr.) / Devin Gil (RS Fr.)
*LB/S/Nickel Hybrid

LB
1. Devin Bush Jr. (So.)
2. Josh Uche (RS Fr.)
3. Josh Ross (Fr.)

LB
1. Michael McCray (RS Sr.)
2. Reuben Jones (RS So.)
3. Elysee Mbem-Bosse (RS Fr.)
rs: Ben Mason (Fr.)

CB
1. David Long (So.) / Keith Washington (RS So.)

CB
1. Brandon Watson (RS Jr.) / Lavert Hill (RS Fr.)
3. Benjamin St.-Juste (Fr.)

S
1. Tyree Kinnel (Jr.)
2. Josh Metellus (RS Fr.)

S
1. Khaleke Hudson (So.)
2. Jabrill Peppers (RS Jr.)
rs: J'Marick Woods (Fr.)

I'm not sold on the "pro-style." I think, as you noted, you disadvantage yourself a bit. I'm mostly convinced of this because Nick Saban made the switch to a hybrid. But, whatever.

Voters more likely to vote for a spready hybrid but ..... hanging chads. I would agree with the argument that successfully running a pro-style offense in CFB, the ones that are going to get you into the CFP and beyond, depends on getting (or developing) elite players that will eventually matriculate to the NFL. If anyone can do that, it's HARBAUGH!!! No question, there's less margin for error in recruiting and putting a winning CFB offense on the field running a pro-style offense than there is running the spread.

I also think the offensive cabal made an effort with Pepcat and the running QB package but as you and I both noted, they weren't serious enough about it and/or didn't want to risk a Peppers injury playing offense. He was just too valuable as the hybrid LB v the spread. I would not doubt one bit that he got injured in bowl practice doing that maybe with some wrinkles ..... like actually throwing it.

At bottom it's still Jimmys and Joes. The thing about M this year is that they didn't really have an offensive strength. They had some really good receiving options, but the QB wasn't dependable enough. They had a mediocre running game, obviously. So there wasn't anything for HARBAUGH to play to when it came to crunch time. I don't think he really had any set of 3-4 plays that were absolute crutches other than working Butt on underneath crossing routes -- which they did really well until they ran into teams with guys who could run with him.

True. IMO, though, Speight could be really good making his reads and having pocket presence when he didn't have defenders in his face. That's OL play and Ferentz, to his credit, was the first to figure this out. The rest of 2016 is history as every DC from there on out knew how to neutralize Harbaughffense. I do think M had the receivers in 2016 with the potential to take the top off defenses ........ it just never panned out that way for a number of reasons. You force zone/one more defender into coverage with a credible deep passing game, M's offense becomes much more efficient in both phases.

Down the road, the WRs and QBs they're bring in re setting up for a true pro-style offense -- the Patriots type stuff. Whether they get a great RB or not, if you have that QB/WR combo it frees up everything.

See above. I'm hopeful but, at this point, not terribly confident that OL play is going to get much better. Doesn't matter the reasons. I'll believe it when I see it but one thing I am absolutely confident in is that the coaches recognize where the problem on offense, particularly for Harbauffense, is. What we don't know well enough is whether it can be fixed. Spotting, recruiting and then developing an elite OL is probably the hardest thing to do among things to do for CFB units. But, I'd rather keep Harbaugffense - whatever it evolves to from its fundamentals - figure out how to do this well than to try to install an exotic offense with spready concepts.

[Jeff Buchanan]

BTW, here's the (pirated) depth chart for the OL:

LT
1. Grant Newsome (Jr.)
2. Ben Bredeson (So.)
rs: Kai-Leon Herbert (Fr.)

LG
1. Ben Bredeson (So)
2. Stephen Spanellis (RS Fr.)
3. Anthony Kay (RS Fr.)
rs: Joel Honigford (Fr.)

C
1. Mason Cole (Sr.)
2. Patrick Kugler (RS Sr.)
3. Jon Runyan Jr. (RS So.)

RG
1. David Dawson (RS Sr.)
2. Michael Onwenu (So.)
3. Andrew Vastardis (RS Fr.)
rs: Andrew Stueber (Fr.)

RT
1. Juwan Bushell-Beatty (RS Jr.)
2. Nolan Ulizio (RS So.)
3. Greg Robinson (RS Fr.)
rs: JaRaymond Hall (Fr.)

It's going to be a huge challenge for the staff to mold an OL that is any good in 2017. I see both depth and talent issues. As an aside, it was pointed out to me in conversations about this that teams rarely find CFB ready offensive linemen coming out of HS. You need an established offensive scheme, depth and then a developmental pipeline. The pipeline has to develop size and strength over at least a two season period where the player who will eventually start is being constantly challenged by a couple of other guys vying to start. Starters won't appear until their 3rd season.

Everyone targets 2012 Hoke recruit Kyle Kalis, a five start out of ohio, as evidence that Drevno can't develop elite players or an elite OL. That's nonsense for a number or reasons I've already pointed out. One thing that hasn't been said is that M transitioned and recruited offensive linemen through two offensive schemes and, during that same period, failed to put enough emphasis on this unit to provide the depth and inherent competition that depth provides. Kalis is a prime example of having no one behind him pushing him to obtain his best. There are other OL positions in the same boat. It's not unrealistic to accept that it can take a decade to fix this kind of problem; to re-establish a reliable recruiting process, build depth, create competition and develop an elite OL. Sure, it's way easier to do this for a spready offense than it is for a pro-style offense but I don't beleive that's a good reason to abandon what the program is fundamentally trying to do under Harbaugh's leadership.

The point is that right now, there is no depth on the OL, there is little competition provided by that and it's pretty clear that the coaches are working hard to fix that. Obviously, none of us, including the coaches, will know what they've got until they get it. Risky, unpredictable stuff.

[Wellington_beefhouser]

No Cesar Ruiz? He may be the most college ready lineman M brings in.