Michigan vs. FSU, Orange Bowl, 8pm, ESPN, Game Day - Post Game Discussion

[THE_WIZARD_]

Sorry I forgot that was supposed to stay our secret...

[Hannibal]

He was spot on. Unfortunately, that goes for his assessment of the O-line as well. Going into the the game I predicted a blowout in large part due to our crappy "offensive" line. Their collective careers were a huge disappointment. Drevno did wonders to get them where they are. Kyle "Whiff" Kalis was especially noteworthy as a bust.

You think that Drevno is a genius for putting together an offensive line that failed to break 3.0 ypc or 100 total rushing yards against OSU two years in a row?

[hack]

Durkin was a genius until we brought in somebody who did a much better job against OSU. If we lose Drevno it's Next Man Up.

[Jeff Buchanan]

You think that Drevno is a genius for putting together an offensive line that failed to break 3.0 ypc or 100 total rushing yards against OSU two years in a row?

Drevno could only do so much. I'd tend to place less focus on him as contributing to the lack of a running game than on Hoke's OL recruiting that was not great, Bob.

Drevno, on the one hand, has an impressive resume that goes back to his close ties with JH.

Hoke OTH was a terrible coach and continues to demonstrate his incompetence as a coach.

Somebody did a piece recapping the careers of Hoke's OL recruits. Not a lot of great talent to begin with and some, like Kalis and Magnusen who were rated highly coming our of HS, have not lived up to expectations. When you look at Mason Cole who has developed as a good C, Drevno gets credit for that. When Grant Newsome went out, I'd give Drevno credit for patching together a serviceable OL from not much.

I don't think you can blame Drevno. Its a lot of factors.

RB recruiting has failed to land a blue chipper in the last decade, so, there is that.

[UMStan White]

"RB recruiting has failed to land a blue chipper in the last decade, so, there is that."

That's not true. Our problem has been that they don't develop as players at the D1 level. Both Issacs and Green were blue chippers coming out of HS.

[Rocky Bleier]

You think that Drevno is a genius for putting together an offensive line that failed to break 3.0 ypc or 100 total rushing yards against OSU two years in a row?

You've forgotten how terrible they were before he arrived.

[Rocky Bleier]

"RB recruiting has failed to land a blue chipper in the last decade, so, there is that."

That's not true. Our problem has been that they don't develop as players at the D1 level. Both Issacs and Green were blue chippers coming out of HS.

Isaac goes down at first contact, has no moves, and he's fairly slow. He's just a big fullback. There's a reason he couldn't break into the lineup at USC. Green had no vision or balance. He fell down as soon as his ankle was brushed. Thomas Rawls, on the other hand, did reach his potential after leaving Michigan.

[Hannibal]

I'm not all that impressed by Cole as a center. He's okay but I look at him and I don't see overachievement.

I don't think that we saw better than expected development out of Kalis, Magnusson, or Braden. At least not the huge leap that we were hoping at least one of them would make. And we haven't seen anything out of Kugler or Dawson either. Was everyone overrated coming out of high school? I remember having this same conversation with Rodriguez's shitty defenses.

Whatever the cause, it adds up to this:

OSU in a "down" year rushed for 233 yards on 42 non-sack carries. That's over 5.5 ypc against one of the best defensive lines that we have ever had.

UM in an "up" year rushed for 107 yards on 41 non-sack carries. That's less than 3 ypc.

OSU has rushed for over 200 yards every year that Meyer has been there. They have done it in "rebuilding" years and they have done it in their peak years. We have yet to break 200 once. That's a massive disparity that needs to be addressed. I think that scheme and strategy are a huge part of it, in addition to just good old fashioned execution. Whatever the case, I sincerely hope that Harbaugh isn't just writing it off to Hoke's recruits being "overrated" and expecting it to change next year when we will be playing freshmen and sophomores almost everywhere on the O-line.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I had a great discussion with a few friends - well informed and passionate M fans - about the things that Hanni brings up regarding a perception among fans that M gets screwed too often and then rolls over.

Going way back to Don Canham's days and before that, M was just another program in the Big Ten, albeit with a lot of history. But it was Canham who leveraged that history to advance M's image. From there, Bo brought fire; in his first year, he beat the perennial #1 CFB team, osu and his mentor Woody Hayes. Then the image that M was better than everyone else in the conference flourished.

Bo did plenty of complaining as M's HC. He was admired by his peers in the BIG but only at a distance. That's because he DID believe M was better than all the rest and he was not inconspicuous about his views. Bo's football prowess and winning ways, especially within the conference, coupled with M's prestige as an academic institution, created the patina of arrogance that most of the CFB world bestows on all M fans.

The soft underbelly of the mantel of arrogance that M wears is it's chronic capacity to roll over into the self righteous, sell flagellation mode we too often see when M comes under criticism.

I am loath to allow the M fan base to express righteous indignation over getting jobbed by the officials all the time and most recently in the osu loss. What that does, and for good reason, is to allow validation of the perception among others that M fans are arrogant whiners.

As it was put too me by one of these friends I had this discussion with, M does get jobbed. It goes back to Bo and Dave Brandon did Michigan athletics no favors with is arrogant bullying. As the story goes, he showed up for his first BT AD's meeting in Chicago, announced he was new at the job and was there to learn. Then he proceeded to lecture every AD in the room, along with Jim Delaney, on how everything the Big Ten and its members were doing was wrong. Pay back? You bet. We're still trying to figure out how Brandon managed to allow a schedule that had MSU at home B2B then have both MSU and osu as road games in alternating years. There's more asshatery attributable to DB that brought the ire of his peers but not relevant.

So, to a certain extent, M is it's own worst enemy. Jim Harbaugh is not going to help reverse the perception and he is more likely to make it worse. I asked what was Ward Maneul's role in the current, possibly but not certainly justifiable, dispute about poor officiating and bias in the osu game? The response was, go back to how Don Canham would have worked this problem. He was skilled at pulling levers behind the scenes and unlike Bo, who was and now Harbaugh is clearly the outspoken faces of M football, Don was very effective in bringing about change favorable to M without ever making public pronouncements about it.

We may not like this reality in an age of I want it now, but few organizational changes come about by unpleasant, in your face pronouncements alleging wrong doing, conspiracy and the like on the part of the officials in The Game. Frankly, none of my friends, nor do I, think any of these things occurred in any sort of purposeful way. However, we do believe there is a pervasive enmity focused on Michigan football buoyed up by decades of perceived arrogance on the part of both fans and key figures within the M Athletic Department. We also have no doubt, because of M's chronic institutional capacity to self flagellation, it is highly unlikely that in this specific circumstance that anyone with the authority to do it will press forward with demands to the Big Ten Front Office for more transparency in how officials are hired, graded, fired and assigned games.

[Rocky Bleier]

Then I have to can only assume that Drevno has forgotten how to coach offensive line since his previous stops at USC, Stanford, and San Francisco where all 5 of his offensive linemen made the Pro Bowl in 2012.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I........ Whatever the case, I sincerely hope that Harbaugh isn't just writing it off to Hoke's recruits being "overrated" and expecting it to change next year when we will be playing freshmen and sophomores almost everywhere on the O-line.

He is angry. Like he fixed the D after osu blew out M last season in 2015 by hiring Don Brown, he'll fix the OL and the running game.

Doing that is key to his game strategy. Some aren't in love with his style of power run game. I can understand that in an age of spready power teams like osu.. But it is who he is so, we need to get used to it.

[iam416]

There's absolutely no mistake in HARBAUGH quoting Bo's words on Saturday, and his tone.

And there's no reason to think it will ever stop. Every where HARBAUGH has been he has actively voiced displeasure with whatever outside of his team was displeasing him. In some cases it was and is officiating. That will never stop. Saturday was another in a long line of that.

The perception will break down along predictable lines: M fans and Not M fans. Which means the bulk of the CFB sports world will his words unfavorably. As Jeff suggests.

Is what it is.

I, obviously, see no plot against M.

[iam416]

Like he fixed the D after osu blew out M last season in 2015 by hiring Don Brown

It'll be really interesting to see if it remains fixed in 2017. As much as 2015 was a product of a significant talent edge, I also think 2016 was -- M's DL and secondary are really, really good and their LBs played well against OSU.

[hack]

Never attribute to malice what you can to incompetence. There's no plot against Michigan. That game was reffed with a degree of incompetence that is outside the norm, and when it rises to that level you'll get some people believing in conspiracies. Which is why part of protecting your brand, at the conference level, is doing your part and putting a competent crew out there to work your marquee game, and understanding how sometimes the appearance of a conflict of interest is as bad as an actual one. Do all that so you don't leave yourself open to darker accusations, and to keep the focus on the field and on the kids, where it belongs.

[Rocky Bleier]

I am loath to allow the M fan base to express righteous indignation over getting jobbed by the officials all the time and most recently in the osu loss. What that does, and for good reason, is to allow validation of the perception among others that M fans are arrogant whiners.

The first use of the word in bold in preposterous. You are reluctant to allow fans to express indignation? The second use of the word is equally as absurd. Others, whoever they may be without apparent regard to their character or credibility, don't influence my thoughts or expressions for fear that I may be negatively perceived by them. And my expression of disgust does not validate any biased perception they may have. The totality of the number of egregious and blatant calls that were or weren't made on Saturday deserve open scrutiny and rebuke. No amount of fear of criticism should cause anyone to be silent.