MLB and the Detroit Tigers Bandwagon Thread

[froot loops]

I think Lofton had a pretty decent case, in my opinion he was more borderline than Raines. But maybe not, offensively Raines was better, but Lofton was really good defensively.

I probably overvalue leadoff hitters. His stretch between age 21 and age 27 was superlative, 37 WAR in that stretch. Unfortunately it was all in Montreal a place where nobody saw you.

[iam416]

Lofton's offensive numbers are pretty comparable. Guy was really good. Raines is just slightly better than him in some career numbers.

I mean, so was Raines. But for my money, I don't think you get in the HoF for 6-7 great seasons.

Anyway, I don't think there's anyway to justify Lofton getting kicked off the ballot after his first go-around (3% or something) and Raines eventually getting in at 86%. Raines was probably slightly better, but that's it.

IMO, I think Lofton is probably about right re HoF. That's why I say there's a real romanticism with Raines. Great player for the middle 80s, to be sure, but, IMO not HoF. But, anyway, he was one of my favorites growing up, so good on him. Always liked him.

[froot loops]

I actually think Raines was underrated because he wasn't Rickey. Rickey Henderson was just so damn good. I think when you look at most Hall of Famers they have a 6 or 7 year stretch where they were dominant in a 20 season career. Raines played 23 seasons. he had a stretch from age 29 to age 33 where he had a 18.5 WAR.

If he had these type of seasons now where BA, HR and RBI weren't the end all, I would think his MVP votes would have been more impressive.

[AlabamAlum]

Chipper: first ballot next year?

[froot loops]

Chipper should be, their is a logjam.

[iam416]

Froot:

Raines' numbers are his numbers. My biggest point is that he's not materially different than Lofton, IMO.

[AlabamAlum]

Yeah, Chipper has some comp next year. His brother, Andruw, is not part of that comp, though.

[froot loops]

I understand the numbers are numbers argument but you also talked about MVP votes and All Star appearances. To me those things are important but overvalued and can penalize players that play in small markets and/or play in eras when people don't appreciate the new type of statistics But then again I think Lofton had a great case, his ridiculous vote totals in 2013 was a travesty. He is also a case like Raines, where he was ahead of his time in statistics, his defensive prowess was probably not understood in his prime.

Lofton is a definite special due to his basketball career.

[iam416]

The contemporaneous view of Raines was my point, and that's not changing...obviously. It may have short-changed him, arguably, but at the time no one thought he was one of the best players of his generation.

Anyway, I agree re Lofton. I guess I would soften my stance on him, but both of them seem like 40-50% type HoF vote guys to me.

[Whitley]

Raines was the #2 leadoff hitter. He is the prototype of what you want a ledoff man to me. He got on base, was a game changer on the basepaths, a good defender.

Next year: Chipper and Thome are easy calls. Hoffman and Vladdy will make it too.

[AlabamAlum]

Dear zeus, how I miss those 1990's Braves.

Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine starting and Wohlers and airheaded Rocker closing. Javy Lopez behind the plate. Chipper, Lemke, McGruff et al on the dirt. Gant, Justice, Grissom, Andruw, et al, deep.

Bobby Cox making unnecessary double switches and pulling the starter way too early or way too late.

Just miss that time so bad....

[iam416]

Leyritz.

[AlabamAlum]

Fuck Leyritz.

[iam416]

Wohlers.

[AlabamAlum]

Fuck him too now that I think about it.