Hating on the $EC - Mostly Alabama (and a little Georgia too)

[iam416]

Yeah, I know what goals of the Foundation are/were, but I sort of doubt they got there.

But, the last point is the key point. And that's what CRD is talking about yesterday. That's really where Ohio State (and M and Notre Dame and others) are getting their asses handed to them. It's the straight upfront money w/o regard to any sort of NIL. And this is very much a top-level University decision because, as noted, it's technically against the rules even if there seems to be virtually zero inclination to enforce that rule. I'm not sure it's even "virtually."

I've raised issues with paying these kids so much money without, say, a contract. But there's another very real issue and it's gonna be involvement in the program. It's one thing if Jerry Jones wants to spend millions on players. He runs the show. He hires and fires everyone and his decision is final. It's another thing to have people spend millions and have exactly zero say in the expenditure of said money. It's not particularly hard to imagine an almost complete power shift from the AD to the Foundations of various schools. And, look, big boosters and their money have always had sway. But I'm not talking about sway -- I'm talking about ownership. I mean, if the competiveness of your program is entirely beholdent to NIL money then the NIL money has all the leverage. Not some. All.

The unintended consequences are really off the charts.

[iam416]

But when a 2-year STARTER (and heading for the Sugar Bowl and a third and fourth year starting) on the offensive line at Alabama ups and goes to fucking Miami, we have an potential issue.

I mean, you certainly understand the portal and kids who can’t crack the two-deep, or who have gotten in trouble and are looking for a clean start, or kids who leave for better facilities or more exposure, or a school that puts more kids in the NFL, whatever. But none of that is true with this kid and Miami. The rumors are the rumors. But if this kid’s fresh NIL deal with Miami is ever made public, and it’s egregious, they should death penalty the Canes. They won’t, but they should. It’s hard to imagine a school that has done more shit than the Canes.

I raised the tampering issue yesterday, too. And noted every professional league has strict rules against it. And yesterday the Knicks lost a draft pick for tampering with a free agent.

There's zero doubt in my mind that certain schools are blatantly recruiting players currently on different teams. When kids enter the portal and immediately announce their decision then, yeah, it seems exceedingly likely that at least some of them knew they were wanted at that school because that school told them and/or "showed" them.

I'll give CRD some credit in terms of building a culture that is very much "developed here" and "brotherhood" or whatever. The kids they'll lose in the portal -- SO FAR -- are limited and limited to kids who weren't going to play. That's probably owes, in part, to what CRD wants to do with his program. Now, his "family" type atmosphere also probably creates an environment that is, ummm, not like UFM's hard edge, supercompetitve, batshit crazy environment that, well, produces wins in almost every big game.

Alabama strikes me as an NFL factory. You come to The Nick, you get coached up, if you're good enough to play, you play, you get drafted, you make money. If you're not, you leave. But, IMO, that'll attract some kids whose priorities are, ummm, focused on things other than program loyalty. So, it doesn't necessarily suprise me that a kid left for Miami $$$$$. That's still more a one-off. The promise of NFL-level development still keeps most kids there.

BUT, once you introduce out and out and out in the open buying of players, then it becomes fairly straight-forward that those kids are gonna remain motivated by money. If you buy kids, don't be surprised if they shop for a better deal after Year 1. I mean, why do you think they ended up at your school in the first place? That seems to be at least partially borne out by aTm.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I'm not sure the shocking numbers and recruiting conduct of some schools has risen to the level necessary to prompt regulation. Yes, what has been called "tampering" is real, I'm just not sure that outside of fan's outrage, there's outrage at the program president's level and above sufficient to foster dialogue among principals that leads to the development of rules and more importantly stiff financial penalties and other costs to the program's sources of income from football. On the contrary, there is more likely to be an "I want it all, I want it now" mentality to grab advantages now before it's too late.

I'm empathetic with talent's view that he's never been so down on CFB as he has become now as a result of all this. It's game changing and an epic paradigm shift .... and not a good one. That's the thing. The current situation begs regulation to protect the sport of CFB. All major sports have gone through periods where things got out of control and threatened the viability of them. It needs to happen in CFB.

If there is a comprehensive and effective example of regulatory authority it is the Securities and Exchange Commission. A "wild wild west" in securities sales and trading, wildly optimistic claims of profits to be made from buying certain stocks and bonds, and billions of dollars at stake back in the 30's prompted Congress to enact rules to protect consumers. That's what's needed here and I don't think the NCAA is up to a task like that. Federal congressional action to protect the sport is necessary.

[AlabamAlum]

Yeah, I know what goals of the Foundation are/were, but I sort of doubt they got there.

But, the last point is the key point. And that's what CRD is talking about yesterday. That's really where Ohio State (and M and Notre Dame and others) are getting their asses handed to them. It's the straight upfront money w/o regard to any sort of NIL. And this is very much a top-level University decision because, as noted, it's technically against the rules even if there seems to be virtually zero inclination to enforce that rule. I'm not sure it's even "virtually."

I've raised issues with paying these kids so much money without, say, a contract. But there's another very real issue and it's gonna be involvement in the program. It's one thing if Jerry Jones wants to spend millions on players. He runs the show. He hires and fires everyone and his decision is final. It's another thing to have people spend millions and have exactly zero say in the expenditure of said money. It's not particularly hard to imagine an almost complete power shift from the AD to the Foundations of various schools. And, look, big boosters and their money have always had sway. But I'm not talking about sway -- I'm talking about ownership. I mean, if the competiveness of your program is entirely beholdent to NIL money then the NIL money has all the leverage. Not some. All.

The unintended consequences are really off the charts.

You see I don’t think Ohio State’s “The Foundation” had any trouble raising their 2022 Coach Day inspired goal of $13 million - especially with that group of Board of Directors. When the dust clears and with the 70,000 IRS agents Biden is hiring maybe we will get an updated 501(c)(3) list soon.

Also, I think it’s funny that you keep saying that Ohio State got their asses handed to them. They were 247 top 5 and would have been 2 (or 3, at worst) with a bigger class.

2023: #5
2022: #4
2021: #2
2020: #5
2019: #14
2018: #2

The hope is always to finish top 5 and despite the smaller class, Ohio State did again.

Yeah, absolutely, to your larger point, contracts and agreements have to be struck. At some point some protections will have to be given to the schools. I am afraid that won’t happen without some kind of CBA which will set up a union, and other problems.

And if Alabama is a football factory, Ohio State certainly is, as well. There are two schools with former alums earning over a combined $1billion in the NFL: Alabama and Ohio State.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/college/

The thing is, I hate it. Unions, NIL, the Portal. All of it. But once the courts opened the door, it indelibly changed college football.

Oh, and you want to hear something else: High School kids are getting NIL deals in about half the states now. And that allows a college booster to heron a kid toward a certain university with payments starting in 8th grade.

[AlabamAlum]

And we can all hate it and lament that we could go back to the old days before the portal and NIL and curse a now apathetic NCAA enforcement arm, but we’re not getting this toothpaste back in the tube.

So, we can do one of the following:

1. Make the most of it to stay competitive and play by the rules even if rule breakers aren’t brought to Justice.

2. Say fuck it and abandon college sports.

As much as I hate the changes (like I hate the CFP), I am not ready to abandon college sports. I will say, though, my resolve is being strained. The funny thing is, if enough fans abandon the sport, the NIL deals would dry up and the portal would become meaningless. Which is an interesting thought, but I’m too old for that.

[iam416]

I'm not sure the shocking numbers and recruiting conduct of some schools has risen to the level necessary to prompt regulation. Yes, what has been called "tampering" is real, I'm just not sure that outside of fan's outrage, there's outrage at the program president's level and above sufficient to foster dialogue among principals that leads to the development of rules and more importantly stiff financial penalties and other costs to the program's sources of income from football. On the contrary, there is more likely to be an "I want it all, I want it now" mentality to grab advantages now before it's too late.

I'm empathetic with talent's view that he's never been so down on CFB as he has become now as a result of all this. It's game changing and an epic paradigm shift .... and not a good one. That's the thing. The current situation begs regulation to protect the sport of CFB. All major sports have gone through periods where things got out of control and threatened the viability of them. It needs to happen in CFB
If there is a comprehensive and effective example of regulatory authority it is the Securities and Exchange Commission. A "wild wild west" in securities sales and trading, wildly optimistic claims of profits to be made from buying certain stocks and bonds, and billions of dollars at stake back in the 30's prompted Congress to enact rules to protect consumers. That's what's needed here and I don't think the NCAA is up to a task like that. Federal congressional action to protect the sport is necessary.

There a good arguments both in favor of an immediate response and in favor of a more measured response after seeing more data. I generally view the "fools rush in" saying ia extremely cautionary when it comes to regulation. And 2 or 3 or 4 seasons of egregious recruiting may be a worthwhile price to pay to get this shit right. HOWEVER, it's extremely frustrating contemporaneously, so, you know, part of me is like "fuck this shit"

[AlabamAlum]

As I mentioned above, with NIL deals being doled out in fucking HIGH SCHOOL, it’s becoming an issue that’s not going away. Texas HS football will be hilarious in a few years. And since the courts said the players own their NIL and can sell it, the people cashing the checks aren’t going to give that up without a fight or some kind of concession from a CBA.

In a different era we would have told the kids that if they want to play football, they weren’t getting NIL, but we just shrugged our shoulders and let it happen because as a society we have trouble saying “no” to anyone about anything these days and the NCAA was so ineffective that it couldn’t rally the various athletic departments to offer resistance.

[iam416]

You see I don’t think Ohio State’s “The Foundation” had any trouble raising their 2022 Coach Day inspired goal of $13 million - especially with that group of Board of Directors. When the dust clears and with the 70,000 IRS agents Biden is hiring maybe we will get an updated 501(c)(3) list soon.

Also, I think it’s funny that you keep saying that Ohio State got their asses handed to them. They were 247 top 5 and would have been 2 (or 3, at worst) with a bigger class.

2023: #5
2022: #4
2021: #2
2020: #5
2019: #14
2018: #2

The hope is always to finish top 5 and despite the smaller class, Ohio State did again.

Yeah, absolutely, to your larger point, contracts and agreements have to be struck. At some point some protections will have to be given to the schools. I am afraid that won’t happen without some kind of CBA which will set up a union, and other problems.

And if Alabama is a football factory, Ohio State certainly is, as well. There are two schools with former alums earning over a combined $1billion in the NFL: Alabama and Ohio State.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/college/

The thing is, I hate it. Unions, NIL, the Portal. All of it. But once the courts opened the door, it indelibly changed college football.

Oh, and you want to hear something else: High School kids are getting NIL deals in about half the states now. And that allows a college booster to heron a kid toward a certain university with payments starting in 8th grade.

So, WRT Ohio State, they are a recruiting machine. And, in particular, Hartline is a recruiting monster. And the talent they have on the roster is legit. Fuck, man, Georgia, for the briefest of moments, probably thought, "fuck, we get them?" I say briefest, because Kirby don't seem like someone to feel sorry for his fucktard self, bur rather someone who sets about immediately trying to wrong a perceived grave injustice in the harshest of terms.

But, yeah, UFM built a recruiting machine. CRD is a really good recruiter. In fact, he had Wilson. He the Brother Ukelele DE that went to Oregon. He still ended up with a solid class, but the misses are real and hurt. And they were NIL missess.

Now, they also were very much in the mix for Caleb Downs and had a real shot (IMO), but at the end of the day Downs chose the "football factory" -- i.e., proven track record of developing defensive talent. But that wasn't NIL and OSU never had him. Ever.

As far as cultures go, it's not a slam on The Nick. It is, in fact, a compliment. And that's only my subjective perception of UAT and it also accords with what I've read. OSU is undoubtedly a football factory, too, but CRD is a different attitude, I think, from -- and let's just say -- UFM. I don't really need to go into what is surely a subjective argument -- and, hey, every school thinks they have some sort of uniquely great culture. But, I do think there are differences from program to program and that recruits can see/feel that. And for some, UAT feels better. for others, OSU.

And finally, yeah -- I mean, it's a make your peace with this shit. I'm nore inclined to think the real option is (c) ignore the rules like everyone else. I mean, if the rules aren't enforced they cease to be rules. At this point, I think the doctrine of "equitable estoppel" is in full effect (in theory) -- that is to say, if a body indicates by its actions that you are allowed to do something, they can't sue you or otherwise attempt to punish you for doing those actions. They are estopped because it's only fair or equitable.

Whatever.

[AlabamAlum]

Yeah, man, I hear you on the estoppel take, but as naive as it may be, I think you have to have a code. And I would rather miss on a kid than to get him through having my fucking collective get into a bidding war with some other school’s collective.

[THE_WIZARD_]

STFU

[AlabamAlum]

And then there’s this Assclown. Fuck, he’s gonna be Bama’s coach, too.

[Dr. Strangelove]

How dare you question the sincerity of his faith

[AlabamAlum]

Get your piss hot, Strangelove.

[iam416]

Setting aside the future coach of a team going to Independence Bowl or some such comparable nonsense, I think it's time to unite in (a) hatred of Coach Kirby and all thing Georgia, (b) praise of General William Tecumseh Sherman and his most just razing of the shitstain lands of the treasonous, and (c) hope and prayers for CRD and the undermanned, outgunned plucky bunch of Buckeyes set to meet Coach Kirby's Death Star. There's is really no middle ground. Either you unite in (a), (b) and (c) or you are an America-hating, barnyard buggering depraved illiterate dumbfuck fully deserving of the life without parole sentence surely in your future.

In short, we are all Buckeyes today.

[DaGeezer]

STFU

I have to agree with your analysis.

To bring some facts to the discussion between fans of two programs lamenting they either did lose a player to the U or may have lost a player to the U, I submit the following analysis updated to today:
https://www.on3.com/db/rankings/cons...football/2023/

Alabama pays its recruits players over 40% more than Miami does. That is just a fact. Alabama has the second highest payouts of any school (to Texas' 282k). OSU, at 98k, is almost double the second-highest B10 per-recruit payoff which is PSU. OSU payouts are five times what UM pays (20k). Clemson is 64, about the same as ND.

I hope you two, AA and Talent, understand that you are lamenting outcomes that are far better than those of the historically honest recruiting schools. Both schools are so used to cheating that allowing others to cheat causes your hand-wringing. Alabama is a joke academically. OSU is better than Alabama but doesn't compare with its peers in the B10 academically. When the NCAA rules prohibited players from being paid, at least schools like ND, UM, and Stanford could offer a superior value in their scholarships. Can't do that anymore.

So UM's 17th-rated class has no top 100 players and two top 200 players. Michigan's top verbal recruit got poached by Miami, too, so I can empathize. But you two bitching about OTHER schools paying one or two players more than your schools did sounds like multi-billionaires bitching about an increase in their property taxes.