Wolverines in the NBA/PISTONS/NBA in general

[iam416]

Why did it get that way? Were teams just looking for a way to slow down the Lakers? And the Celtics, to a lesser extent?

Reilly's Knicks, IMO, showed how a team without a superstar could beat a team with a superstar (although they never quite did). But that Knicks team had no business playing the Bulls straight up for 6 or 7 games. Anthony Mason and Charles Oakley? Greg Anthony and John Starks? Ewing and Charles Smith? I mean, that's a nice group of players, but there's no way that team is better than Jordan, Pippen, Grant, etc. However, they would grind you to dust in the half court. You couldn't cut. You couldn't drive. Grabbing, clutching, elbows. Everthing. It was a morass. So it negated (mostly) the offensive skill advantage. And since most teams did not have superstars they were inclined to go this route.

When the Suns and Nash and Stoudamire and Dantoni came around it felt like a huge breath of fresh air -- and they only average 105-110 ppg. But compare that to the Pistons when the won it all in 2004 -- 90 ppg.

So, I think the NBA essentially decided that it wanted its superstars to be able to play 1v1. I also think the Golden State/analytics move to 3pt basketball then cracked whatever halfcourt defense was left.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Knicks took the Pistons thuggishness and said..."hold my beer"...

[iam416]

Correct.

Here's a good idea, let's put Mason AND Oaktown AND Ewing on the court at the same time. And let's throw in Anthony and Starks. And let's plant them forearms in the lower back as soon as they cross halfcourt.

Fucked up the game.

I mean, seriously -- Pistons-Pacers -- Eastern Confernce Finals -- Game 6 -- 69-65. FINAL. Not halftime. FINAL.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Brutal. Looked like a fight between Buster Douglas and Chuck Wepner...

[hack]

I found those to be extraordinarily compelling basketball games. I could have used a little more skill in shot-making, but I prefer a game with no uncontested shots ot one with too many. Scoring range from 80-95 is the sweet spot in terms of balance.

As for the current legacy management ongoing, what Jordan hates is that he's 1-3 against the Pistons and that won't change. Laimbeer nailed the answer. He DGAF if Jordan hates him. He cared about winning.

[iam416]

[lineygoblue]

The Pistons started to fall off when they tried to sneak Rick Mahorn thru the expansion draft, and I believe it was Minnesota who picked him up. When you lost half of 'McMean & McNasty", you lost half of the team's soul.

If the NBA would not have changed the rules to the Bulls favor, no way does Jordan win 6 titles.

[iam416]

[Whitley]

It culminated, IMO, with the Larry Brown Pistons. The Pistons-Pacers ECF in 2004 was so hard to watch. These are actual scores from two games: 72-67 and 69-65. The latter was the deciding game 6. 69-65. The NBA slowly started to move past that horror. Now they've way overcompensated, but such is life.

So, it's not the Bad Boys that were an afront to decent basketball. It was the early 2000s Pistons. But that was also just what the league had become.

Loved watching those Pistons-Pacers games. Mr. Big Shot, Wallace and Wallace, Tayshaun and Rip City. They were such a great defensive team and had an underrated offense. Ben Wallace to this day is underappreciated how great a player (HOF discussion level for sure). If they draft Bosh instead of Darko they probably win at least another couple championships.

[lineygoblue]

If they draft Bosh instead of Darko they probably win at least another couple championships.

Bosh or Dwayne Wade. Either one would have filled that need.

That was the biggest goof of an otherwise excellent career as GM by Joe Dumars.

[iam416]

Any serviceable NBA player instead of Darko and they win the following year.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I found the NBA at that time to be awful. The pendulum has swung to the opposite direction now, and I find it to be awful. As a basketball fan, I prefer a freer offense. For example, in 2007, Ohio State and Wisconsin played in a 1v2 game (Greg Oden). Ohio State won 50-49. It was a horrific watch. Aaron Craft's last two teams were passable to horrific on offense and great on defense. They were excruciating to watch for me. At the same time, 140-130 is just B12 football.

So, I'd prefer the 100-110 range. That's right where the Bad Boys played. They were a very good offensive team. Then the Reillyfication of basketball happened. And the league didn't really start to pull out of it until the Dantioni-fication of the league.

[lineygoblue]

The league is now filled with guys who shoot the step-back three. Ball movement for a shot is rare.

[hack]

The Spurs/Heat period was best, IMO. Before the full on Dantonification. The Spurs ball movement was just incredible. I don't know if that will be repeated. They worked on it for years with the same core. But I think regardless of style of offense, for me what matters is the amount of uncontested shots. Just keep that low. In the NBA, a defensive slugfest still features the athleticism that makes things exciting. The game in which Tayshaun Prince had The Block was a low-scoring slugfest -- I think that play itself kept the Pacers under 70 points -- but there was athleticism all over the place in that game.

[hack]

Bosh or Dwayne Wade. Either one would have filled that need.

That was the biggest goof of an otherwise excellent career as GM by Joe Dumars.

Yes Darko was a bust but IMO it was really his inability to hire a coach. Carlisle was a no-brainer; Brown an even bigger no-brainer. After that it was just floundering. They really needed to strongarm Brown into one more year. Flip Saunders was a terrible choice. Maybe Nate MacMillan would have been able to manage it. But, in retrospect, Flip was clearly not the guy for that group. He took a team that never won anything without grinding on D, and lacked the talent to do it any other way, and he made them believe they could win with jumpshots. He took their identity away becuase he thought he could outthink first principles. I remember watching his first Christmas Day game with a pit in my stomach knowing this shit wouldn't work in the playoffs. And it was awfully painful to see the team flounder in that Game 6 against the Heat, bricking 3 after 3 because Ben was on the bench and they didn't have the ability to just go dig on D.

[THE_WIZARD_]

STFU