UM Football Recruiting - by WM Wolverine

[iam416]

So?

And he applies equally to OSU. But, meh.

[whodean]

It's sad that M fans rely on the seemingly go-to excuse these days "everybody else cheats".


It's lame.

[hack]

I don't think it has to be all extreme. It only stands to reason that schools that don't pay are going to lose out sometimes to schools that do. It also only stands to reason that the players who might command the most cash are the 5-star skill players. The question, IMO, is not whether the team is doomed to mediocrity, but whether a steady stream of 5-star skill players is mandatory to compete at the highest level. Or can M get away with not getting as many of those kids as the cheating schools? My sense is that M can and should. One way is to pay assisstants like Mattison what they are worth so as to make sure you're coaching up your four-star players to the max you can. Another is to trust that you're going to get at least some of those top WRs, QBs and RBs, and also maybe Mike Hart type of kid who plays like a five-star but was a three or a four. They might not be in contention every year, but perenially elite and consistent 10-2 seasons with the occasional championship game appearance is attainable, no?

[Hannibal]

It's sad that M fans rely on the seemingly go-to excuse these days "everybody else cheats".


It's lame.

Auburn bought their national championship two years ago. There is absolutely no doubt about that. But it's okay for a parent to act as his son's agent, as long as the kid says that he doesn't know about it. SEC West cheating is legendary.

Oregon almost certainly bought their appearance in that game. They got busted bribing a "scout" to gain influence with a 5* recruit. That investigation is still ongoing. I should point out here that other programs have had dealings with this guy, but there is no smoking gun there.

Which means that you've got to go back to at least 2004 to find a participant in the BCS title game that:

A. Wasn't from a ridiculously talent rich state like Florida or Texas, where you can fall out of bed and land a Top 10 recruiting class.

and

B. Isn't a cheating program like OSU, USC, or an SEC West school, or a program that massively oversigns and cuts players ('Bama, LSU)

If it's sour grapes to complain about people not following the rules, then why bother having rules or even following them?

I say that it's time to stop bringing a knife to a gunfight because it's the "honorable" thing to do. Especially since the rules that are in place don't even benefit the players.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Jeff, pull yourself together.

You dispute the hypothesis that the combination of factors - the culture within the university, the record of missing on the necessary numbers of difference makers in recruiting and the continuation of what is embodied in the concept of the Fort - is going to hinder M's chances to consistently compete for spots in the national play off system that is emerging?

Frankly, looking at the reality of what produces national championship level college football - payola as a means of inducing NFL caliber/difference maker recruits to play for your team - and recognizing M is never going to go there makes it pretty obvious to me that the argument for mediocrity, that M will be a good Big Ten football team and that is about it, is a pretty solid one.

Go down the list, if you will, of the recent dominant football teams, you'll find a roster of paid players behind their success. That's fine. Clearly it's been going on since CFB began. It does not however make it right or make it the model I want Michigan to follow to compete with teams that engage in this practice.

As well, I can still enjoy the game and support the team but its nonsense to keep talking about M playing with the elite given the circumstances that I've laid out for this forum.

[iam416]

The problem with (B) is it's based almost entirely on assumptions and it conflates recruiting and other NCAA rules violations. Personally, I think some SEC teams do pay directly for recruits. Whether LSU, e.g., falls into that category, I dunno. I have no idea if USC does. I actually tend to think they probably don't. I mean, look at this year's class. You'd have to argue USC didn't change at all if that's your position, even on massive probation and facing devastating, truly devastating sanctions if caught. I don't see it.

Fact is, USC is a recruiting machine. I could make the case that Alabama is a recruiting machine, too.

That said, there is no doubt a culture of handlers, especially in southern states that, for some recruits, you have to deal with. Most teams won't deal with them. Some SEC schools will. But that slice of pie isn't something that can't be easily overcome. It's a modest, at best, advantage for a school like Auburn. IMO.

[WM Wolverine]

Something I posted about a month ago:

Talked with a recruiting insider 2-3 days ago, told me M doesn't recruit kids from the south that have 'handlers'. They'll only recruit the kid himself not through a handler, parent or family friend. He also brought up that lots of these elite recruits have their entire recruitment handled by a 'family friend' (agent type or connected to an agent) who showed up when they looked like an NFL prospect. These 'family friends' sometimes have more than one family to look after.

I brought up Cam Newton and he said that is more rare that a kid who is getting taking cared of by a 'handler', a third party loosely associated with the university. He mentioned the typical programs expected of this and a couple surprises: Auburn, Alabama, LSU, USC, Florida, Florida State, South Carolina, Georgia, Clemson and Texas. Not really any 'news' from this but confirmed what I've heard and he said college basketball is easily ten times as competitive.

-

My information on Treadwell comes from a close friend, ND fan who follows recruiting really closely and has subscriptions to both scouts and rivals. He's pretty optimistic about Treadwell and knows that I was very optimistic about him as a Wolverine a couple months ago... This info did NOT come from M rivals insiders but ND ones at either scout/rivals.

re: liney and the above italicized message. I've heard the same about Treadwell going to the highest bidder but not from anyone I trust, not yet. Just baseless message board rumor to this point without any credible source, usually the result of someones sour grapes...

re: USC and the above italics. I think they fall in-line with most of the others on the list in that they'll take a kid who is getting help via an agent, family friend, 'handler' type but doesn't directly pay those players. Some schools like M turns those kids away...

More info about these supposed 'handlers', it seems one of the new changes is that shoe companies are playing a pretty large role in recruiting; obviously Nike camps and such help direct recruits to Nike schools. This is one reason why their is a big uproar from coaches about the sponsored 7-on-7 type events, they aren't hosting these for charity. They are getting something from it and it's not just advertising.

[The Oracle]

Talking with Bama fans when I was down in Dallas, they almost all said that everyone in the SEC pays for their players. Some are better at hiding it. Don't know why they'd say that if it weren't true. But it's part of the game now. Deal with it.

[Jeff Buchanan]

So, dominant CFB teams of the last 20 years have achieved success on the recruiting front not because there is an ill-described yet, nevertheless obviously present, payola system in place to induce recruits to these programs but because they are recruiting machines and just play good football?

talent........ You're a fact guy. I respect that. But I think a strong case, based on reasonable probability and a fair amount of hard evidence, that there is a fairly well organized system in place to induce players to go to certain programs. I think that system disadvantages programs that don't want to go there. Not a lot but enough to separate them.

Personally, I think organizing bodies like the NCAA that have failed to clean this sort of thing up have done tremendous damage to the sport of CFB. I've heard all the arguments: no lack of fans so no destruction; coffers filled so no destruction, on and on. The sport survives. I can't argue that the sport isn't doing well because the cream of the crop gets there through a payola system that delivers the talent they need to stay on top. That does not mean it will continue to do so where the road to success is achieved this way.

History is rife with examples where the failure to clean up one's own act results in unfavorable consequences in the long term. It's just a matter of time for CFB.

[Jeff Buchanan]

......... But it's part of the game now. Deal with it.

Cheating on exams will get you to the top of your HS class assuring a wider choice of top colleges.

Stretching the truth on a resume about your accomplishments and job record will open some doors that would otherwise not be open.

On and on ........

It's part of life. Deal with it.

The noted historian and author, David McCullough, has recently argued very publically, that this nation is creating a generation of illiterates that lack integrity. It seems as if he is right.

[hack]

History is rife with examples where the failure to clean up one's own act results in unfavorable consequences in the long term. It's just a matter of time for CFB.

CFB perhaps thinks the special tie of alumni to schools is enough to keep the gravy train going despite the sport not being an even playing field to the extent that a sport requires in order to be considered a legitimate competition with an outcome determined on the field.

We'll see...

[WM Wolverine]

repost from elsewhere:

Tyler Bray told reporters that "he gets paid to win football games," then backtracked and said "getting paid" meant his education. Love the SEC

[Hannibal]

Heh. Reminds me of when Pryor slipped up talked about how well he and his family were being taken care of at OSU. Some guys are just too stupid to keep their mouths shut.

[Hannibal]

History is rife with examples where the failure to clean up one's own act results in unfavorable consequences in the long term. It's just a matter of time for CFB.

CFB perhaps thinks the special tie of alumni to schools is enough to keep the gravy train going despite the sport not being an even playing field to the extent that a sport requires in order to be considered a legitimate competition with an outcome determined on the field.

I think that you are exactly right on pegging this attitude. And if you are right, then the startling amount of empty seats in places like the Michigan student section should set off big alarm bells. There has been a dropoff in the level of fanaticism displayed by the students, and that probably translates to a financial dropoff in 20-30 years, when those students are supposed to be the ones to provide financial support. When you bring the minor league baseball experience into Michigan Stadium, Michigan Stadium loses some of what made it special for folks like us. This is the consequence of having an airheaded pizza salesman as your athletic director.

[hack]

Possibly more the consequence of having RR, but we'll know in 2 years or so when for the current undergrad crop that's ancient history. But, yes. It's a golden goose they seem determined to kill.