UM Football Recruiting - by WM Wolverine

[entropy]

Even with Cam, they had Malzahn on the staff.

I mean, this is getting silly. There are numerous elements to winning a national title or competing for a national title. But there is absolutely no soft-pedaling talent. A MAC school with Bill Bellichek, Pete Carroll, Nick Saban and Bill Cowher as coaches would have no fucking prayer of winning the national title.

Meanwhile a coach like Jimbo Fisher -- a coach I consider merely "good" -- can win the national title by recruiting a boatload of talent.

Further, if good coaching and player development is comparable -- and for the good coaches, I think that's the case -- then what makes the difference. Talent! And, of course, with all levels of football -- your QB.

Finally, when I watched last year's OSU-Oregon game, I didn't think, man, Ohio State is splendidly coached -- what tremendous player development. I thought, holy fuck, they're better than Oregon at shit near 21 of the 22 starting positions. Now, UFM gets credit for that in terms of player development, but he was also starting with a MUCH higher rated lump of clay.

QB play is under discussed when talking talent. That position can carry or cripple a team 3x what any other position can do.. Recruit well there and it makes up for other mistakes.

and my point was recruiting doesn't matter.. the point was great coaching matters probably more. Sure, div 3 talent with the best coaches won't win.. but the best coaches wouldn't get div 3 talent. They'd get good talent. Top 10.. maybe.. maybe not.. they'd get enough.. They are great coaches. There are great recruiters who failed as coaches.. more so, imo, than great coaches failing to get talent to fit their system.

[Da Geezer]

The QB of Michigan's national championship team was a walk-on. Just saying.

[iam416]

OSU: same.. too much talent in the state to really be bad.. and out of state schools are their only real competition. Agreed. Though they've missed on some in-state kids and are doing really well OoS.

MSU: I'd say the class looks better than previous yrs.. on paper. MSU finally cashing in on the success? They're do way better. Their DL and WR recruiting (assuming Corley) is elite. If DeWeaver turns into a solid starting QB, this is a huge class for MSU

Mich: feels the same to me.. sorry guys, but Michigan under the last 3 coaches got some really good players and several projects. Hasn't seemed to change.. What might be changing is development of those players Killing it on the OL; lack of skill players and pass rushers. That's comparable to Hoke. I like JH's recruitment of SOME of the athletes -- Evans, Bush (soon enough) -- I think those kids could be really good and are not kids Hoke would have been after

Wisky: feels down.. so far. Not that wisky was great, but they seem to be competing for kids with less impressive offers They got the RB they wanted -- and they seem to do a really good job with that. Missing Bredeson really hurt. But they're typically a 2-4 4* kid team and they already have 3, so that seems about right

Iowa: had a big weekend where 6 kids committed... but I'd say the same. They just don't recruit well and some of their best kids were passed over by Bo P or late bloomers. Team speed is lacking Iowa is almost ahead of where they finished the last two years. But it's all 3* meh. SOP.

nebraska: appears to be up.. UNL is not doing the settle for the kid with only a central florida offer in the summer. I'd have to look at star rankings, but my impression is we are competing with schools who are a head of UNL in recent program success or they are programs on the rise. I'll defer to you. Seems like a decent start for Riley -- certainly no drop off

PSU: seems to be up.. lots of energy in that staff.. not sure they have the real difference makers, but they seem to be beating schools they should beat for kids instead of losing some of those battles.. Franklin is recruiting well. He had a strong class for 2015 and should continue that with 2016. I'd peg them as most likely to finish 2nd in the B10

Minn: seems to be the same.They beat out UFM for a home state kid that OSU really liked. Other than that, no clue.

[iam416]

The QB of Michigan's national championship team was a walk-on. Just saying.

And the best player on that team was a 5* Mr. Ohio.

[iam416]

but the best coaches wouldn't get div 3 talent. They'd get good talent. Top 10.. maybe.. maybe not.. they'd get enough

We're not talking D3 talent, we're talking Iowa talent. And, look, good knows I appreciate the quality of coaching as UFM is walking example of what a really good coach can do for a program -- BG, Utah, Florida and now. I just don't think you can sit there and say you're going to compete against Saban at Alabama or UFM at Ohio State with 3* kids. A great coach may be able to best a more talented Jimbo Fisher team or Dabo Swinney team or Mack Brown--now Charlie Strong team. But, I mean even Paul Johnson -- who, IMO, is the epitome of scheme -- couldn't beat FSU.

I think USC will be an interesting case study. I don't think anyone would rate Sark as some sort of legendary coach. He did fine at Washington, but he certainly didn't elevate Washington beyond expectations. Now he gets to tool around with talent out the ass. Meanwhile, a coach like Paul Johnson is scheming and grinding his way to success. I'll you bet you a million OP dollars right now that Sark is in the CFP Final before Johnson.

Anyway, good chat, Entropy!

[Da Geezer]

Entropy:

Let me assure you that none of the big 4 in the B10 could care less about recruiting in Wisconsin. In my lifetime, the only time a school other than UM or OSU has won the B10 title was when that school was able to avoid playing UM or OSU because of scheduling. And when the B10 broke into two divisions, OSU was UM's "rivalry game", making UM's schedule by far the toughest in the conference. Then they went to the current alignment, with the 4 best programs in the same division. You have a very narrow window from which to view the B10, and your view would be different if UM and UNL swapped divisions.

Of course there are exceptions, 1966 MSU comes to mind, and I know research will yield the VanderKellen Wisconsin team. But in general, the route to a title for the "little eight" was to avoid the "big two".

Talent:

It is true that UM has only played in one national championship game at the end of the season. But several UM v. OSU games were de facto NCGs. And The Game has had more impact in determining an eventual national champion than any other rivalry in the last 65 years. 1969 comes to mind.

[Da Geezer]

yes, good going Entropy

[iam416]

It is true that UM has only played in one national championship game at the end of the season. But several UM v. OSU games were de facto NCGs. And The Game has had more impact in determining an eventual national champion than any other rivalry in the last 65 years. 1969 comes to mind.

"De facto NCG" suggests, to me, that the winner went on to win the national title and, more importantly, whoever won would have gone on to win the national title. If we have different understandings, I apologize. But, based on that understanding, OSU won some huge matchups against M, no doubt -- 1970, 72, 74-75 -- but they went on to lose in the Rose Bowl in each of those years with the national title on the line. And while 70 and 75 were huge upsets, 72 and 74 were against USC. The same basic story, of course, played out in 2006.

No doubt M has spoiled OSU national title hopes on a few occasions, but that doesn't amount to a de facto NCG. In 1968, 1995 and 1996, M had zero hope of winning the national title going into The Game.

I find it stunning that M has only played for the national title 1 time in the past 65 years especially because, as I said, they've had several teams capable of winning the national title. But I think that underscores how f'n hard it can be to win one of those things. And while the CFP has made the margin for error slightly more forgiving in the regular season (see OSU), at the backend it's really hard -- CG, Semifinal, Final. That's why I don't expect OSU to repeat and why they're only 4:1 at best to win (and they're the best bet).

[entropy]

Geezer.. no question UNL is benefiting from being in the west. I don't question that. In the old big8, it was OU or Nebraska for the title most years. So I'm actually used to that as well.. =)

I know UNL doesn't win the NC without a Frazier or a Frost.. I know UNL needed to get CB's who could play with Miami WR's to win a NC... I know UNL loses a game or two last year wihout Ameer. I get talent matters. My points were talent isn't the only thing that matters and imo, inovative coaching matters more if I was ranking them... the scheme changes UNL went through on offense and defense in the early 90's were proabably more important than the players they recruited. That doesn't mean talent doesn't matter. I'm not saying or suggesting that... I also believe there is regional and location bias to rankings, but in the end, it doesn't matter if rankings are slightly off. What you do on the field matters at the end of the day. And you will need talent to win. I think we will all agree on that. It was just good discussion to pass some time.

Now.. if we are talking about the Talent.. then yes, Talent doesn't matter

[SeattleLionsFan]

Can anyone honestly tell me when the Michigan football team was higher rated at the end of the year than their recruiting class was rated on NSD?

[Wellington_beefhouser]

If people were expecting Harbaugh to come in and dominate recruiting, it was an unrealistic expectation. There might be a couple of years where you are hanging your hat on "being able to develop and manage his talent successfully." That doesn't mean in the future he is recruiting the unheralded players your hope is you have results to sell.

Agreed.

And that's perfectly fine. I guess my question, then, is what are your expectations for JH? Because if it's a national title or being an elite program, then that, IMO, requires being elite at recruiting, player development and scheme/coaching. Put another way, Saban and UFM, e.g., are pretty damn good at the latter two. JH isn't making up much, if any, ground in those departments. So, I'm not sure how you're going to beat them with any type of consistency with inferior recruiting.

My expectations of JH are high, competing on the national level high, but not right away. Naturally, initial expectations are lower than they'd be for year 3 or 4. My hopes are top five... year in and year out. I expect Michigan to pull in top recruits like OSU or Alabama after we begin to win more (selling results). Inspite of the record left by Hoke, I think JH and company have done a terrific job on the recruiting trail and it looks like the "star" recruiting services would agree with that sentiment. I dont see this current recruiting class to be "inferior" at all. Yeah, Michigan has a couple of two stars but keep in mind there have been some badass two star prospects....

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foot...-star-recruits

Jim Harbaugh wins wherever he goes, I expect he'll win at Michigan. My opinion is wholly my own so please take what I write with a grain of salt. I've been known to bullshit.

[iam416]

I expect Michigan to pull in top recruits like OSU or Alabama after we begin to win more (selling results).

I think this is critical if you want a top 5 program. Though, I don't think you need to sell results. First year coaches can bring in great classes right out of the gate.

Finally, I think it would be better if you were also speaking for OP, Buchanan and Geezer. That way those 3 magi could STFU. I guess I'll just have to accept that your opinion is your own. Bah.

[*JD*]

Devery Hamilton commits. Hard to believe there is not too much talk around here about another 4* who plays either offense or defense. I happen to think the story of Harbaugh's recruiting is not that he has taken some 2* prospects, but rather many, probably most, of these recruits have multiple positions that they could play. This kid is 6'6" 270, good on defense, but considered an OT by the services. Raw. Needs a RS year.

I missed this when doing a quick scroll. Nice get.

The Harbaughller is walking some recruits around town today. Another viral video to go with it, courtesy of 4-star TE, Naseir Upshur.

http://btn.com/2015/06/25/video-michigan-coach-jim-harbaugh-takes-to-streets-of-ann-arbor/

Harbaugh's got street cred with his mean-mugging.

[Hannibal]

Mich: feels the same to me.. sorry guys, but Michigan under the last 3 coaches got some really good players and several projects. Hasn't seemed to change.. What might be changing is development of those players Killing it on the OL; lack of skill players and pass rushers. That's comparable to Hoke. I like JH's recruitment of SOME of the athletes -- Evans, Bush (soon enough) -- I think those kids could be really good and are not kids Hoke would have been after.

Hoke at least got some great LBs and DBs too. Those are sorely missing from this class. It's a Northwestern caliber defense being built right now.

[Hannibal]

And that's perfectly fine. I guess my question, then, is what are your expectations for JH?

Never a losing season. Beat OSU 50% of the time, beat MSU at least 2/3 of the time, win a bowl game about every other year, win the Big Ten Championship Game at least a couple times per decade. If you want to be considered a successful coach at Michigan, you've got to those. If you want to be considered a "great coach", you had better do more. If you fail at one, you better make it up in some other way. The conference championships is non-negotiable though. Harbaugh had better win them. And I will not reduce my expectations if the results don't materialize.

It should be interesting to see M fans' reactions if this does not materialize, and whether that causes them to overreact to singular success points the way that they have done with the basketball program and the way that Detroit Lions fans react when the team breaks a long losing streak. (I can see it now -- muppets on the front page of mgoblog in 2020 for finally breaking the losing streak against OSU). If it ever gets that way, I think I might be done.