UM Football Recruiting - by WM Wolverine

[hodgkal]

As for Michigan's past, in questions of integrity, just remember who our HC was from 1995 to 2008. We may have have been bothered about a relative decline in recruiting and passion in his later years but NOBODY has ever made the slightest suggestion that Lloyd Carr was anything but an absolutely honest and principled leader in every sense of the word. You could say the same about Bo. As for Moeller he may have marched to a different drummer but I've never heard a hint of anything like we have witnessed at OSU.

As in so many things it may be the cover-up that is worse than the crime and brings on the passions for punishment. And there aren't many character defects that are more disgusting than brazen hypocrisy. That is Jim Tressel. And it carries over to his many apologists including the recent institutional reassessment of his "firing" and letting him "retire" while waiving significant financial penalties.

The honorable thing for Buckeye Nation would be to acknowledge all their enabling and wrong doing and clean house now. When people honestly confess their transgressions there is usually room for forgiveness. But it has to be honest.

[South Stands Junkie]

I live in NW Ohio and from what I hear, Chris Wormley is a virtual lock to be a Wolverine.

Kyle Kalis committing to Michigan is one of those signings that make all the other top prospects take notice and realize that Michigan is on their way up again....once a few start signing, the others will follow suit.

[Pasadena Blue]

I think that what DSL and similarly-thinking Buckfans can't get is what Doc just said... it's not that the 'Vest's crimes are so bad ---- the hypocrisy is what creates the disgust.

[lineygoblue]

it's not that the 'Vest's crimes are so bad ---- the hypocrisy is what creates the disgust.

Exactly. The image "the senator" created for himself was that he indeed WAS a man of honesty and integrity. He wanted to make ohio "proud" of its team again, in all the right ways.

Instead, he chose to lie and cheat, when he had the option of being honest and up front about the whole thing.

Thing is, I don't think that the loss of those five players last year would have made that big of a difference in olieo's w/loss record. I think they still would have had at least 10 wins, including the mandatory win over Michigan, and a BCS bowl berth. Had he been honest from the beginning, kicked the offenders off the team, and did a "circle the wagons" approach around the rest of the team, not only would he still be coaching olieo today, he'd be more popular than ever. Michigan wouldn't be able to get a DEBATE TEAM recruit out of olieo, much less a National Top Ten football player.

Again, they have nobody to blame but themselves, and their insatiable desire for "just win baby".

[hack]

NOBODY has ever made the slightest suggestion that Lloyd Carr was anything but an absolutely honest and principled leader in every sense of the word.

Well he treated journalists like crap, and to an extent that makes one wonder who else got dumped on for just doing their job. He also seems to have engaged in a bit of sabotage. So I don't think ``honest/principled/every sense'' fits, but it is totally reasonable to suggest that he followed the rules.

[Jeff Buchanan]

So I don't think ``honest/principled/every sense'' fits,.....

I think it does. Here's why.

Irascible does not suggest dishonesty.

Before adequately considering this, I was pissed at Lloyd and his followers for what I am almost certain was a concerted effort to oust Rich Rodriguez by words and deeds.

On further review, what they might have done over that awful three year period was to have elevated Michigan football in a way that was not suggested in the won/lost column. Jury is still out but things are looking good so far.

Machiavellian? Perhaps. But there are principals that are worth pushing for and character of an institution worth preserving and it may very well turn out to be the case that Lloyd Carr, if he was in the back-ground in all of that - and I think he was - absolutely did the right thing.

[whodean]

As for Michigan's past, in questions of integrity, just remember who our HC was from 1995 to 2008. We may have have been bothered about a relative decline in recruiting and passion in his later years but NOBODY has ever made the slightest suggestion that Lloyd Carr was anything but an absolutely honest and principled leader in every sense of the word. You could say the same about Bo. As for Moeller he may have marched to a different drummer but I've never heard a hint of anything like we have witnessed at OSU.

As in so many things it may be the cover-up that is worse than the crime and brings on the passions for punishment. And there aren't many character defects that are more disgusting than brazen hypocrisy. That is Jim Tressel. And it carries over to his many apologists including the recent institutional reassessment of his "firing" and letting him "retire" while waiving significant financial penalties.

The honorable thing for Buckeye Nation would be to acknowledge all their enabling and wrong doing and clean house now. When people honestly confess their transgressions there is usually room for forgiveness. But it has to be honest.

Great point, Lloyd should gain a renewed status from his doubters in light of Tressel's transgressions and the Remediation of RichRod.

[whodean]

there are principals that are worth pushing for and character of an institution worth preserving and it may very well turn out to be the case that Lloyd Carr, if he was in the back-ground in all of that - and I think he was - absolutely did the right thing.

Another just spot on post.

Lloyd was right.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Bill King (Radio) talked about the culture of sleaze in CFB this morning hammering Chip Kelley (Oregon) for out-right lying to a reporter from the Oregonian about Willie Lyles.

This comment was made in relationship to his view of how poorly osu handled every aspect of what was a jay-walking, mis-demeanor type of offense (the Tat-5) turning it into a felony (tressel's lies).

What is the motivation for this kind of behavior? Why is it that coaches think they can lie to the public about this kind of stuff and think any of us out here are going to not find out the truth ..... most of us are not as dumb as 4th graders and the amount of information out there about exactly what is going down is there for the conscientious investigator. Still, these high powered coaches must think we are stupid and won't find out. They are the dumb ones.

Screw them. I have no sympathy for jim tressel. osu has made a huge mistake negotiating with this guy and giving him benefits he should not be able to claim. He violated the terms of his contract but gets rewarded???? ..... why should the tax payers of ohio have to foot the bill for his retirement?

It is this kind of crap that reveals the sick underbelly of college sports. College President's and the NCAA better work to get a handle on this and if they don't it is only going to get worse. Human beings are infamous for bad behavior when there is nothing in place to restrain it.

[lineygoblue]

why should the tax payers of ohio have to foot the bill for his retirement?

They'll bend over, smile, and pay it gladly. Its all about the wins, baby.

[Mike]

Mike Valenti actually made a good point on his show yesterday with regard to Kalis. This is ohio's "rollover accident with Mateen Cleaves". That incident led to Izzo cleaning up in-state recruiting and a decade of dominance over Michigan. ohio's recent troubles are creating a wave of top recruits fleeing the state for higher ground. I don't believe for a second that ohio football will collapse the way Michigan b-ball did but it is becoming evident that Michigan football is reaping some big rewards at ohio's expense - at least in the short term.

[Rocky Bleier]

The short term is all Hoke needs to get the program back on track. Got my fingers crossed that we can keep all the Ohio boys and get some more. An aside to Schmuckeye fans: Our coach may look like Fred Flinstone, but I'll take that over a phony Mr. Rogers look.

[hack]

Jeff, Lloyd reportedly was after RR before the guy even coached a game, so the results of RR's tenure are not an excuse. Lloyd wasn't ``right'' -- he was merely convinced that his way is the only way. He was convinced to such an extent that he decided the end justified some unsavory means. Which is very inconsistent with the halo some people see over his head. As you know well enough, and Lloyd does too somewhere in the principled part of his brain, the process is important and once you talk yourself into one deviation from it, more can follow and then you have the metaphorical equivalent of fatal t-bone crashes in intersections.

The irony in that is that RR may be a doofus or a flawed coach but he certainly was an upstanding man whose behavior was everything expected from the term ``Michigan Man''. More so than many of the insiders who pushed him out, Brandon and Lloyd included.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Lloyd wasn't ``right'' -- he was merely convinced that his way is the only way to such an extreme extent that he decided the end justified the unsavory means. Which is very inconsistent with the halo some people see over his head.

Do you admire Harry Truman?

Do you admire Winston Churchill and FDR who ordered the terrorism in the skies in the indiscriminate firebombing of German cities by American and British bombers?

Different circumstances but I admire Lloyd on an equal basis with these other leaders. They had the guts to do what was right in the face of both the potential and the reality of a firestorm of criticism and immense damage to their legacies.

[jack_crancer]

Admire a football coach on equal footing with two of the greatest leaders the Western World has seen. Um dude, last time I checked no one died playing football. The comparison is laughable. It's a fucking game, not a war. Don't ever confuse the two again.