UM Football Recruiting - by WM Wolverine

[Jeff Buchanan]

...... The alternative is that M is headed up and run by an unthinkable level of bungling incompetence that has managed to convert one of CFB's storied programs into dreary gray gruel. 41-35 over the past 6 seasons -- tied with Oregon State for 55th best in FBS.

I think what talent was expressing is that M fans want the Civil War Theory to be true rather than the alternative (above).

I think it is absolutely true (the alternative). This, regardless of whether there are factions or not (and I believe there are).

Frankly, no faction with an agenda of their own should influence sound leadership and management founded on a set of principles and goals set by leadership.

All three principals in leadership roles, MSC, Bill Martin and Dave Brandon have, in my opinion, bungled the management of the Michigan Football program badly.

Fundamentally, M's own culture of arrogance has risen up and bit the institution squarely in the ass. It's recoverable just like any number of former elite programs, among them Alabama, OU and I'd probably have to include ND.

I've said this before but, using osu as an example, that instituition from the top down is committed to winning football and will do what it takes to achieve that goal. I think Michigan is a long, long way from acting in a unified manner to restore M football to its former place among CFB elites.

[iam416]

I have to chuckle at "top down". Ohio State is a massive confederacy of colleges with their own little powers-that-be that have to be hearded and massaged by the President. Now, if you had just said "top" -- I'd agree. The BoT fully understands the value of football as well as the AD as a whole. I'd also add that it's not just football. The BoT have made a concerted and massive effort to improve the campus area and the academic reputation of the school. Those efforts have been very successful.

I guess that's a way of saying that I think the "top" -- the people who make the big ticket decisions are generally of the same mind and have the clarity of vision to understand that OSU is perceived through numerous different lenses and that it's wise to be perceived well in as many as possible. Academics, campus amenties and football are probably the three biggest, but they've pushed others as well. It's a simple lithmus test.

Anyway, that's a bit tangential to stuff being discussed here.

[iam416]

Anecdotally, my wife refused to go to any school that did not have at least one big-time sports team. Though I suspect that's revisionist to some extent, the fact that UNC had hoops and M had football (and then hoops when she was there) were definite factors. That experience is a very nice perk to offer students. Universities should treat it that way (and most do).

[Mike]

I don't buy a Civil War theory within the Michigan football program, especially one between Bo and Lloyd factions. Bo hasn't coached a game in a quarter century and has been dead for 7 years. I think the last "Bo" guy running around was Jon Falk which means there were no Bo guys of significance left in the program. I consider the Bo/Lloyd factions to be one and the same - the old guard - who hate change and will stomp their feet and hold their breath to make sure Michigan doesn't step outside their comfort zone.

I'll buy that Lloyd and his people didn't like RR and RR's people but that went deeper than just Lloyd and his cronies in Schembechler Hall. That was just a mis-match made in hell from Day 1. RR had no idea what he was getting into and mistakenly assumed that everyone would be on the same page. I made that mistake, too. These days it seems 90% of what I learn about the inner workings of the football program and AD makes me want to throw up. Regardless of which "faction" is right or which one is to blame, the university as a whole has completely dropped the ball with regard to the football program and that is some shameful shit.

The only silver linging for fans like me is I plan on picking up tickets dirt cheap next year and I will not buy a single goddamn one of them through the UM athletic office.

[Da Geezer]

Columbus, today, has a greater population than Detroit.

Michigan was the only state to actually lose population in the 2000-2010 time period.

This may seem tangential too, but in 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in the US (5th in population). UM established an academic reputation of being in the top 5 of all universities, public or private. This is what Bo had to sell when he went into homes to visit recruits. MSC, Brandon, and Martin are merely the latest in a long line of Southeastern Michigan politicians who have destroyed that part of the state in the name of "social justice".


Demographics are destiny.

[hack]

I recall reading that back then. there's fire. And I imagine that, short of the Civil War theory, there are plenty of program alumni that didn't think what Lloyd did upon retirement was appropriate. You don't have to be a ``Bo guy'' to see that. But, in the end, Hoke himself has acknowledged the factionalization. You don't have to rely on a piece of writing you're skeptical of to ratify that theory.

But as for what ails the program, it's obviously both. You can see by the success of the basketball program, which has no white elephants or dogma or identity issues or however you want to put it, that the system can work. Martin was allowed to quietly make a hire, and he found a guy that isn't perfect but he's pretty damn good and fits the culture here perfectly. In football, of course, where the AD can't just quietly go about doing things in a best-practices sort of way, you get the incompetence. John Bacon's theory is that the AD job generally goes to someone who is first-and-foremost loyal to the president of the university, and actual qualifications are a secondary consideration.

[hack]

Columbus, today, has a greater population than Detroit.

Michigan was the only state to actually lose population in the 2000-2010 time period.

This may seem tangential too, but in 1950, Detroit was the wealthiest city in the US (5th in population). UM established an academic reputation of being in the top 5 of all universities, public or private. This is what Bo had to sell when he went into homes to visit recruits. MSC, Brandon, and Martin are merely the latest in a long line of Southeastern Michigan politicians who have destroyed that part of the state in the name of "social justice".


Demographics are destiny.

Dunno. Michigan has to get its shit together on various fronts, and on others it's cruising along just fine. I have a feeling the university won't slide along with the state. What's done would be very hard to undo.

[Mike]

FWIW, the QS university rankings routinely has Michigan as the highest ranked public institution in the United States. They trail most of the Ivies (not all), MIT, Stanford, and that's about it.

[Rocky Bleier]

The perception out there for some people is that Notre Dame is a better school than Michigan. Is that true or false or hard to measure?

[hack]

I don't know either way but it's a private school. Not public.

[Da Geezer]

Measurements are ultimately subjective, but the US News and World Report rankings is the one that is used by most Guidance offices in midwest high schools.
Here is the link:

http://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press-room/2013/09/10/us-news-announces-the-2014-best-colleges

ND is # 18 in national univeresities and UM is # 28 I believe. UM is still in good company. If MSU has convinced McDowell's parents that it is the equal of UM in academics, then their coaches did quite a job. Also Hand going to Alabama for academic reasons is nuts.

[Rocky Bleier]

I don't know either way but it's a private school. Not public.

I knew that. I was talking about it in the context of recruiting.

[Hannibal]

Those rankings are pretty much asswipe.

[Mike]

And there's about a dozen of them. I looked through a few of them earlier today and Michigan is almost always in the top few public universities with Cal-Berkeley. The US News list is among our lower rankings and I've seen us high as #14 overall in the world and #1 US public school. Anyway you slice it, Michigan cannot be out-sold on academics to American college football recruits.

UM's endowment is up to $8.8B, 7th largest in US, 2nd for a public school behind Texas.

QS world ranking has us at #22 in the world, #12 US, #1 US public.

http://www.topuniversities.com/unive...s=false+search=

[WM Wolverine]

There are tons of ways to subjectively rank universities, M is always in the 1st tier after the Ivies. MIT & Stanford are a step ahead of everyone else as far as 'tech' universities...

M has enrollment over 40k students, lots of rankings subjectively overvalue small private universities like ND.