Around the Big Ten

[Wild Hoss]

To be semi-fair to USC, I think Reggie Bush was big violation. They had gads others for crapola, but it was pretty much just Bush.

Yeah, I'm not so sure what they could do. I mean, they got a bowl ban AND got raked for 30 scholarships over 3 years, IIRC. That's a significant hit. The fact that they're USC and Lane-O is recruiting the shit out of things, meh. I mean, are you going to tailor sanctions to how good the program is or try to levy consistent penalties regardless of school? Of course, the NCAA does neither on a consistent basis, so it's entirely theoretical, but I prefer a well-defined code or precedent on penalties rather than an outcome-driven process.

Your idea re conference-specific investigators is interesting. It's an interesting idea to do "random" testing. Send a team of 2 or 3 to a given campus, unannounced. Have them survey the parking lot at the practice facility (this, incidentally, was Andy Geiger SOP). Then have them "tail" players (require that each school provide a roster with addresses to the NCAA). Spend 2-3 days doing this.

Lemme tell ya, that would scare the bejesus out of, well, ummm -- every major football program.

I think you have to tailor for specific schools. 30 ships for 3 years is an inconvenience for SC; for Utah State it might as well be the death penalty. If the goal is to influence behavior through punishment, then the level of pain must be adjustable to the offender IMO.

Problem is of course, that the NCAA has no judgment whatsoever.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, I'm not so sure what they could do. I mean, they got a bowl ban AND got raked for 30 scholarships over 3 years, IIRC. .

This is fast becoming a pet peeve of mine -- they lost 10 scholarships, not 30. Losing 30 scholarships makes it sound like they are cut down to 55, or that they are legitimately losing the opportunity to sign 30 players. That's not even remotely the case. They still will have 75 scholarship guys on the roster. They are stuck at 75 for 3 years, and you better believe that they will be up against that number the entire time. But it only significantly affects one recruiting class. You take 10 less guys one time, but your sizes are mostly normal after that. Especially in USC's case, since they took a massive class right before the scholarshihp penalty started, so they are more likely to hit the 75 scholarship limit. The might be hurt by it in about 2015, when they have a tiny senior class, but it might not bother tham at all.

[Hannibal]

They key to avoiding punishment is to cooperate, but deny everything, and volunteer absolutely nothing. Claim that everything was the act of a few individuals, and cut off every violation at its source. The Auburn case proves that the NCAA absolutely, positively, will not connect any dots. The OSU case proves that no matter how numerous the individual cases, the NCAA will refuse to hold the program accountable. The concept of "culture" simply doesn't exist. In the meantime, make sure that you take care of who needs to be taken care of, so that you don't get a Maurice Clarett opening his mouth or a guy like that Miami booster who has that program in trouble. USC was simply a massive outlier.

Keep in mind that had it not been for the agent's lawsuit against Reggie Bush, USC could still publicly proclaim its innocence. Punishment is also a somewhat random affair that results from whether or not there is non NCAA-related paperwork in existence (i.e. court documents, police reports, etc).

[iam416]

The OSU case doesn't "prove" that, though it certainly proves you're better off burning a bad e-mail than disclosing it. But that's been discussed ad nauseum.

More importantly, every major program, and I mean every one, has players or boosters who could easily say enough to sink the program. We know it doesn't take much for the NCAA to levy fairly serious sanctions (of course, sometimes it takes a lot, who the fuck knows). One way of looking at Clarett is that OSU recruited a loose cannon who openly talked to ESPN in the first instance. In that regard, when I hear about recruiting "character" and such, that's what I think about -- players who have the common sense and good judgment to STFU, go to class, play the game and who understand that if do all of that, they can make a decent living off their "ex-Whomever" fame even if they were only a marginal player at best. Be a company man; reap your rewards.

[Hannibal]

OSU had no choice but to disclose it. It was discovered as part of a FOIA request. That means that somebody else would have gotten it.

[Hannibal]

More importantly, every major program, and I mean every one, has players or boosters who could easily say enough to sink the program.

I'll believe that statement when every program has the same level of smoke coming out of it. I guarantee you that different coaches have different levels at which they take enforcement of the rules seriously. On top of that, different programs have different cultures and attitudes towards cheating. As long as the NCAA half-assedly fight symptions (and even then, they only do it when someone else has done the work for them), cheating will continue, and some programs will gain a competitive advantage by cheating over the ones that either don't cheat at all, or cheat to a far smaller extent.

[iam416]

I'll believe that statement when every program has the same level of smoke coming out of it

I didn't say it was all the same. I agree that different programs are, well, different.

What I believe firmly is this that there are players and boosters at every program who could say enough to sink a program NCAA-wise. The number of each may vary wildly amongst major programs. It may be LSU has 60 players on the roster who could really hurt the program and Arizona may only have 2. I'd buy something like that, but it doesn't make my statement any less true - in fact, it directly supports my statement.

I guess you're just less of cynic than me, Hanni. I suppose if you don't see smoke you assume everything is on the up and up. Not me.

[Hannibal]

Oh trust me, I'm sufficiently cynical. My cynicism lies in looking at the BCS championship game and saying to myself that the non-cheating programs are essntially excluded from playing in it. The 2010 game, especially, is a total fucking joke.

But I'm satisifed that our program is on the up-and-up, since the local paper once had a vendetta against the coach, so they ran possibly the most intellectually dishonest piece of sports journalism I have ever seen in an attempt to take him down. As a result of that, we got a colonoscopy a few years ago, and all that they found was that we didn't count stretching towards our 20 hour lmiit. There have never been more favorable circumstances to expose cheating, and there was none exposed there.

[The Oracle]

Well put.

[THE_WIZARD_]

More importantly, every major program, and I mean every one, has players or boosters who could easily say enough to sink the program

Sink the program? Several programs you could say that about...EVERY program? Uh no. I would say you are full of shit on that.

[Optimus Prime]

There has to be an AD or a HC or two sweating bullets right now in the aftermath of the NCAA hammering of PSU.

Some football program must be hiding some patently illegal activity in addition to rule braking.....who is next?

[iam416]

Oh trust me, I'm sufficiently cynical. My cynicism lies in looking at the BCS championship game and saying to myself that the non-cheating programs are essntially excluded from playing in it. The 2010 game, especially, is a total fucking joke.

That's quite the paradigm you've set up for yourself. Honestly, it's the sad song of the loser.

I reckon it may change on the off chance M ever plays for a national title again, but until then it will work just fine.

Some football program must be hiding some patently illegal activity in addition to rule braking.....who is next?

Uh, Oregon. Miami.

[Hannibal]

That's quite the paradigm you've set up for yourself. Honestly, it's the sad song of the loser.

And "everybody cheats" is the sad song of the cheater.

[entropy]

There has to be an AD or a HC or two sweating bullets right now in the aftermath of the NCAA hammering of PSU.

Some football program must be hiding some patently illegal activity in addition to rule braking.....who is next?

As long as you don't investigate yourself, you'll be fine.

[Optimus Prime]

Did you cut down that Cherry Tree Jim Tressel?