Around the Big Ten

[Hannibal]

You whine that this is a waste of time for you then demand that I prove that violations were not commited. Which is always the case. Myself or Talent or whomever are asked to prove that something DIDN'T happen. Which means you are starting from the position that of course these players got free cars and it's up to OSU and the players to prove their innocense.

You've got multiple former players on the record saying that vehicles was one of the perks of playing for OSU. You have a former recruiting target who claimed on HBO that OSU committed major violations during his recruitment by offering him hookers on his visit. Over two dozen players "bought" vehicles from one dealer, including one guy who "bought" three cars (facts not in dispute by anyone). You've got one guy who was pulled over in vehicles with dealer plates three times (also not in dispute by anyone, including OSU). The first time he was pulled over, he was doing 90, "test driving" his car more than 100 miles away in a different state. Your head coach has been caught red-handed cheating and lying to cover up NCAA violations. His star QB at his previous job was taking cash and that program got hit with LOIC. The only reason why their national championship wasn't taken away was because of the statute of limitations. Now you've got another former player (Troy Smith) saying that he took the fall for other people. Numerous OSU players have been busted taking illegal benefits since your Athletic Director gave the program a perfectly clean bill of health and you all went on record saying that the Tat 5 was a one time outlier.

There's a fancy word for all of that. It's called "evidence". What you call the "Michigan Man" system of justice is plain old common sesnse that everyone outside of the state of Ohio is capable of using.

It hasn't been proven that OSU players got cash and vehicles. In the same way that it hasn't been proven that human beings evolved from primordial ooze over a period of 600 million years. And it hasn't been proven that the universe exploded into existence about 13 billion years ago. Yet there is a mountain of evidence to support them and they are models that are consistent with all of our findings. And if you come out and say that they are completely false, somebody might ask you to prove it instead of sticking your fingers into your ears and shouting "LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU"

[Dr. Strangelove]

The player that appeared in the HBO special later recanted his story if I recall correctly.

[Rocky Bleier]

"If I recall correctly"

That would be a first.

[Jeff Buchanan]

dsl, both you and talent rest your arguments on the lack of facts supporting the view that osu is and has been a dirty program.

I define dirty this way: Multiple players getting benefits in violations of NCAA rules, rules being violated repeatedly after said players are presumably informed they committed violations. Benefits being inappropriately provided to osu players in such a way as to support a finding by a reasonable man that osu fails to monitor athletes in a way that prevents this behavior. If you dispute this, feel free to let us know why and by what reasoning you do.

osu's head coach lied to the NCAA on three occasions. Not in dispute.

osu allowed players known to have received inappropriate benefits and were therefore ineligible to play an entire season and a bowl game. Not in dispute.

osu has vacated the 2010 season and the bowl win, fired coach tressel and, in varying degrees, suspended players from games during the 2011 season. IMO, its not enough punishment for what is turning out to look like wide spread and long standing cheating that ADVANTAGED THE OSU FOOTBALL PROGRAM IN RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR CONFERENCE COUNTERPARTS IN BOTH RECRUITING AND ON THE FIELD.

IMO, there is enough there for the NCAA to act and to act forcefully:

tressel to receive a show cause letter. Most agree this will happen.

osu to receive an additional NOA; that allegation will be FtM. Unavoidable if the NCAA is going to follow their rule book. devir posey.

osu to be alleged to have Lost Institutional Control. In dispute ..... frankly I don't see how osu can avoid this as the body of information available to the public (excluding what is not known) supports such a finding.

"Model of Compliance" an astounding remark made public ally by gordon gee. While it is true that osu has the highest number of self reported violations among NCAA members, has any one asked why this is so?

talent has repeatedly asserted that if osu was so dirty, as we here believe and argue, why do we ignore the fact that osu reported all of the recent violations of NCAA rules that are the subject of this discussion? Models of NCAA compliance do not have football players repeatedly violating the rules after being told they are violating them. Reporting does not excuse osu from an apparent FtM, loss of control and failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance. I'm counting on the NCAA to see it this way as well. Things tell me they will. On what basis do you argue, dsl, that they shouldn't or won't.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Crickets.

Not surprising.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Crickets.

Not surprising.

Some of us work, my friend. I will address your latest trip through the looking glass this evening

[Pasadena Blue]

ummm.... I think I can make a prediction.

We'll hear something about: 1.How this is all hyperbole, innuendo, exaggerations etc that is being trumped up by M fans, and how grateful the world should be that M-fans aren't running our judicial system, etc., etc. 2: These are all ridiculous rules anyways. 3: All this stuff happens at other institutions including M, and this little more than the pot calling the kettle black.

.... and to some extent, DSL will be right in his arguments. The problem with this discussion is that people are trying to argue black and white... when that is not the case here. The reality is that it's not a situation of "M" being "good" and "O" being "evil," it's a case of "O" being more "evil" than many including "M"

[Dr. Strangelove]

dsl, both you and talent rest your arguments on the lack of facts supporting the view that osu is and has been a dirty program.

I define dirty this way: Multiple players getting benefits in violations of NCAA rules, rules being violated repeatedly after said players are presumably informed they committed violations. Benefits being inappropriately provided to osu players in such a way as to support a finding by a reasonable man that osu fails to monitor athletes in a way that prevents this behavior. If you dispute this, feel free to let us know why and by what reasoning you do.

osu's head coach lied to the NCAA on three occasions. Not in dispute.

osu allowed players known to have received inappropriate benefits and were therefore ineligible to play an entire season and a bowl game. Not in dispute.

osu has vacated the 2010 season and the bowl win, fired coach tressel and, in varying degrees, suspended players from games during the 2011 season. IMO, its not enough punishment for what is turning out to look like wide spread and long standing cheating that ADVANTAGED THE OSU FOOTBALL PROGRAM IN RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR CONFERENCE COUNTERPARTS IN BOTH RECRUITING AND ON THE FIELD.

IMO, there is enough there for the NCAA to act and to act forcefully:

tressel to receive a show cause letter. Most agree this will happen.

osu to receive an additional NOA; that allegation will be FtM. Unavoidable if the NCAA is going to follow their rule book. devir posey.

osu to be alleged to have Lost Institutional Control. In dispute ..... frankly I don't see how osu can avoid this as the body of information available to the public (excluding what is not known) supports such a finding.

"Model of Compliance" an astounding remark made public ally by gordon gee. While it is true that osu has the highest number of self reported violations among NCAA members, has any one asked why this is so?

talent has repeatedly asserted that if osu was so dirty, as we here believe and argue, why do we ignore the fact that osu reported all of the recent violations of NCAA rules that are the subject of this discussion? Models of NCAA compliance do not have football players repeatedly violating the rules after being told they are violating them. Reporting does not excuse osu from an apparent FtM, loss of control and failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance. I'm counting on the NCAA to see it this way as well. Things tell me they will. On what basis do you argue, dsl, that they shouldn't or won't.

1) I define "dirty" as a program that not only fails to act on players receiving illicit benefits but actively facilitates said transactions. To date there is no evidence of this taking place at OSU.

2) Tressel lied or obfuscated the truth and faced severe consequences because of it.

3) I think some sort of loss of scholarships and maybe a one-year postseason ban will be tagged on to our punishment. The damage already done to the program has caused this to be a lost season.

4) It's completely mystifying how Posey or anyone else getting $300 helped OSU on the field. They played better because of it? None of the violations have been tied to recruiting either. I'm sure the argument will be that players "know" they will get paid once at OSU and therefore it's a recruiting advantage. But if you're going to make that argument, then it's also an advantage to play at a bigtime school. Fans of bigtime programs will pay handsomely for your memorabilia after graduation; much more than fans at Indiana or Wake Forest.

5) LOIC is inconsistently applied and is not necessarily an indicator of seriousness. OSU, in other words, could get tagged with LOIC and not receive serious additional penalties. Or the reverse could be true. Alabama was not hit with LOIC in 2001 when the NCAA concluded that an Alabama booster had paid tens of thousands of dollars to a Memphis high school coach for a player. And that Alabama assistants knew about fraudulent SAT scores. LOIC was not applied to Florida State when it was revealed that school-provided tutors were committing widespread academic fraud across a dozen sports and involving dozens of football players.

6) No matter how much you insist that self-reporting does not matter, it does.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Thanks for your response .....

(1) You're moving the bar. I disagree with your definition of dirty but I see your take.

(2) OK, we probably agree here. My only beef is that it appears the administration eased the fall. He violated the terms of his contract and probably the employee handbook that everyone else at osu has to abide by; don't know for sure but I suspect lying is grounds for immediate termination without recourse and without claim to benefits to which the separated employee might have a claim to. You lie you lose is how it should be. That makes the administration appear shady heightening my view that there was a deal made. tressel keeps his mouth shut and he gets stuff.

(4) I'm sure the argument will be that players "know" they will get paid once at OSU and therefore it's a recruiting advantage. Yep, that's exactly what my argument is. If you are going to argue as you did in four, show me proof that this is a wide spread occurrence among schools like UF, Texas, Bama, LSU, Standford, OU for example. osu recruited top players under tressel's tenure as HC because they played great football, went to BCS bowl games just like the teams I mention above AND THE HEAD COACH HAD THE PLAYERS BACKS ...... WHILE THEY RECEIVED HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS UNDER THE TABLE, PLAYED FREE GOLF, HAD CARS AND PLENTY OF WOMEN, GOT PRICEY TATTOOS FOR FREE, WERE ABLE TO SELL WHAT EVER THEY WANTED DESPITE THE APPEARANCE THAT IT WAS SHADY; I could go on.

(5) We agree except FtM and LOIC ups the ante for punishment. I can see post season bans on the horizon in addition to those things you mention.

(6) I fundamentally disagree with you.

[hodgkal]

One reason the final outcome of this case is in question is because of the hypocrisy surrounding the NCAA itself. I go back to the Atlantic article which really opened my eyes as to the vulnerability the NCAA faces if it clamps down too hard on its big money making programs. The whole CFB scene as currently structured, with a middle man taking a big slice and adding little to the final product, is on thin ice IMO.

Have any of you watched the current PBS special on Prohibition? People are going to drink no matter how you try to legislate it. CFB is a similar addiction that brings out pretty basic passions that lead to all kinds of underhanded methods to gain advantage. It brings into question the argument about paying CFB players above board. A tough question, I know.

[Dr. Strangelove]

JoePa issues threat to Nit fans

“Who knows,” Paterno added with a straight face, “maybe I’ll go 10 years.”

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-pennst-paterno

[Pasadena Blue]

The fact that he said that makes me think this is his last year.

[Jeff Buchanan]

The Paterno situation is strange. He may still have a sharp mind but his speech is slurred and his attempts to look energetic fail miserably, on camera anyway. He's pretty much your averge 84 year old that should be rocking on the front porch and taking it easy. He's frail and every time he steps onto the football field during a game or practice, he is one hit away from a life threatening hip fracture. To me he is a stupid, stubborn old man.

I suspect he has the PSU administration by the short hairs and has told them he's not stepping down and if they try to force him out he'll create a mess for them in the name of age discrimination. Tough situation for those that love him and what he did for college and PSU football.

[hack]

For some reason I am thinking of the Mo Ibrahim award, given to African heads of state who leave the job voluntarily...

[Hannibal]

The Penn State program is getting by because of the great coaching tree that Paterno built over the decades. Tom Bradley and Larry Johnson, Jr appear to be totally carrying that program. Galen Hall might be a good OC too, but he's carrying around a QB coach who is a boat anchor. They've got a figurehead as their head coach (and the value of that presence decreases every year as Penn State's glory days get further and further behind them). The guy supposedly hasn't done an in-home visit since Terrelle Pryor. Can you imagine another coach in the Big Ten not doing home visits? With OSU struggling this year, Penn State should be cleaning up on the recruiting trail. Right now, it looks like their class is going to be good, but not great. They still probably aren't going to get a top 20 prospect from Ohio in a year when it has never been easier to do it. Wisky, Nebraska, and Michigan have all gone into Ohio to get great prospects, but the Nittany Lions have been essentially shut out there.