Around the Big Ten

[hack]

All true. And LOL @ fatwa. But that doesn't change the fact that for Buckeyes, morality changes according to the situation.

[Whitley]

Kansas is 'fringe' academically on most metrics, other than AAU they are behind Nebraska. Oklahoma is far behind both...

They'll have to really sell 'athletics' for Oklahoma & Kansas which support for Kansas was a tough sell last time Kansas came on topic for realignment. One football king, one basketball king both with very healthy athletic departments; athletics I think they certainly 'pass' which leaves the debate only about academics, population/markets & demographics. It'd bounce Purdue to the East, which would help 'balance' the East-West balance leaving all Central time zone teams in the West, Eastern time zone in the East. I'd personally make a run at the Virginia & North Carolina markets, more markets, population & recruits in that area not to mention no question about their academics.

I think that is the Big Ten thinking atm. Time is on their side as a decade or so from now. Virginia will be more culturally northern than they are now and it will be an easier sell for TPTB to make. Especially looking at the next big time contract Big Ten gets with the additions of Rutgers and Maryland.

I think UVA is a very serious target. The real question is who comes with them. Hard to see UNC coming unless they did not have a choice (and Duke would have to come as well). Notre Dame is the same way. At present it is hard to see who the second target would be.

The biggest problem with Kansas and OU is that little brother would almost have to come and I think that is a non starter for the Big Ten. However, if OU could get to AAU status and didn't have to take little brother that would be a very interesting school.

[Wild Hoss]

I think its likely that right after the NCAA hammered Penn State with the sanctions, that they got up the next day and asked themselves, "what have we done"? I get the impression that they've been looking for a way to backtrack on the sanctions for a while, and the current excuse is as good as any.

Or they could be the shitbirds that we all believe they are, and threw Penn State under the bus until the public outcry and attention waned.

[lineygoblue]

Yeah, there is that too ...

[WM Wolverine]

I'm alright with the NCAA getting involved. That said the punishments I had in mind were mostly going to be to those 'proven' to be involved who were going to spend a TON of time in prison and no university would hire the guilty parties regardless... All those guiltly hopefully will be dealt with legally...

There is legitimate reason to say that PSU did benefit by not reporting this or more accurately, wasn't harmed by not reporting it which is pretty much the same to me. This is imo 'lack of institutional control' (which has a loose definition imo); athletic directors & coaches having the ability to sweep things under the rug and dealing with them 'in-house' instead of being transparent to the NCAA, B10 and the legal system. Joe Pa was quite famous for giving his players little discipline and giving what appeared to be little-to-no punishment (at least that ever affected PSU on-the-field) for rather awful misconduct.


Just like it hurt PSU when the situation came to light originally (before we knew Paterno, PSU's AD, president, etc. were conspiring to keep Sandusky's name clean); reporting Sandusky to the authorities at that time would've been a big black eye to the PSU football program, though nothing like the TKO they eventually received and deserved by covering up Sandusky's actions... NCAA also fined PSU $60mil which is absurd unless that money is going being used for both prevention and to victims of these sick type of acts by people like Sandusky...

More than anything, athletic departments from many, many other major universities have far too much control over the 'legal' issues that happen on campus to its student athletes and in this case, one of its coordinators. Sandusky is an EXTREME example but too often these universities are sweeping major issues under the rug that should be handled legally, by the NCAA or by the conference/B10. IMO the NCAA wanted to make an example out of PSU and rid other schools of the type of 'culture' at PSU that allowed Paterno, his AD, staff and president to allow Sandusky to walk free for his actions and allowed him to continue to repeat his abuse of children.

[Hannibal]

Emmert tremendously exceeded his authority in the first place when they placed any sanctions whatsoever.

I have seen this opinion expressed many times, but is that actually true? Is there nothing in NCAA bylaws that allows them to punish a member organization for gross instituational misconduct that involves the coverup of heinous crimes? The punishment is without precedent, but so was the crime.

And saying that just the individuals should have been punished is a copout. It was a problem of institutional abuse and neglect. When an institution is that rotten, you can't just fire a few people and say "my bad". Corporations don't escape paying fines when their employees commit criminal negligence on behalf of the company. The entire company, including its stockholders pay dearly. Just ask BP.

Paterno escaped punishment with death and it's not a given that Tim Curley and Graham Spanier will be found guilty of anything. If you don't think that the Freeh report is reliable enough to punish Penn State then it definitely isn't reliable enough to get a criminal conviction on the individuals involved. There isn't necessarily going to be any punishment to those guys.

[iam416]

Penn State certainly didn't escape institutional liability. They are paying millions in civil settlements.

I have no problem with Penn State getting blistered in civil court. I had and have a problem with the NCAA imposing penalities that break no specific NCAA rule.

To use a corporate example, it's like the EPA levying huge penalties agaisnt Enron because what they did so was evil they just had to pile on.

[Hannibal]

Is there nothing in the NCAA rules that specifies compliance with the law? I'm not asking this rhetorically. I just wonder if it's something that is so basic and obvious that it is in chapter 1 of the book and nobody bothers to notice it because it is so obvious and it has never been an issue.

And let's not forget that Penn State ultimately agreed to these sanctions. If the NCAA was overstepping its authority, then Penn State should have fought back against it. One factor that nobody is mentioning that I think is significant is that Penn State probably wanted to get this out of the newspapers and publicly do penance for it as quickly as possible. A long, drawn out NCAA investigation would have hung over the university for a couple of years, and it would have been painful and embarrassing for a lot of people inside and outside the program. Penn State got some benefit from getting it over and done with fast.

[iam416]

I actually don't think there is. There is some sort of hugely vague ethics clause into which nearly any wrongdoing could be shoehorned.

And, TBH, nor should there be. The NCAA is analogous to regulatory agency. That agency functions within the overall legal framework, including the civil and criminal systems, to add a layer of rules that are not otherwise actionable before any other body. To wit -- selling your autograph.

That was and is my problem. Penn State is entirely unsympathetic and destestable. What they let happen is fucking atrocious. They are getting their just desserts in civil court and the individuals are, at least, on the hook in criminal court. I don't think, however, that the NCAA has any real basis to impose penalties, and they knew it then and know it now. When they issued the penalties they more or less said this isn't precedent, we won't ever do this again, but we feel like we have to do something. That is, IMO, weak-minded ignorance of the rule of law catering to public perception.

My First Amendment professor is Jewish. He went to court to defend the rights of Neo-Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois (a hugely Jewish suburb). Easy cases are easy. Hard ones test your principles. And I think the NCAA failed massively wrt PSU.

Also, your point re the consent agreement is well-taken. It's tough, though, when you realize that you're dealing with an organization that has made it clear the rules don't apply and that it will unilaterally and arbitrarily decide your fate.

[Hannibal]

They are getting their just desserts in civil court and the individuals are, at least, on the hook in criminal court.

I don't feel as confident about this. They will avoid civil court by paying some out-of-court settlements that, while they are not chump change, also don't move the needle for a massive institution like Penn State. Without the NCAA, there would be no fines or further compliance costs.

I'm also skeptical that Spanier and Curley will see significant justice. To convict these guys in court of anything but a token charge will require proof that I'm not sure is there. Beauracracy has a funny way of insulating people from the negative effects of their bad decisions. People can cover their ass without anything getting done. The fact that one of the conspirators is dead gives them an opportunity to pin things on him.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Through 5 weeks...

1. Michigan
2. Ohio State
3. Wisconsin
4. Northwestern
5. Nebraska
6. Penn State
7. Michigan State
8. Illinois
9. Iowa
10. Minnesota
11. Indiana
12. Purdue

[Jeff Buchanan]

Are you f'ing nutz?

Right now, given circumstances and probably scheduling, I'd say NfW wins the Legends.

If you want a top 5 its:

1. osu
2a. NfW
2b. Wisconsin
3a. Michigan (by an RCH over Neb)
3b. Neb

I really don't give a shit about the rest although MSU or PSU could make a run.

M is still finishing 7-5. Mark it down. And that is considering the B10 is awful. Yes, that includes osu b/c their defense is in trouble.

[Mike]

That means we'd have to go 3-5 in the Big Ten. There's just way too many bad teams for that to happen.

[Jeff Buchanan]

That means we'd have to go 3-5 in the Big Ten. There's just way too many bad teams for that to happen.

@MSU, @NfW, @PSU, @ Iowa, pick any three and M is not going beat osu unless this staff makes an unbelievable comeback coaching job. I'll give you Neb as a toss-up. So, maybe, by a RCH, 8-4.

[Mike]

PSU doesn't scare me. I have us 9-3 and getting completely humiliated om NYD by an SEC team. That reminds me, I need to secure Winter Classic tickets.