Around the Big Ten

[Optimus Prime]

"Joey, it's hot, let's go take a dip in the kiddie pool!"

"What the hell is the matter with you Jerry? Now go hit the showers!"

[Rob F]

I only have a few minutes to offer my thoughts here, so here goes:

while I differ with Talent and DSL on whether the NCAA should take action (I think the NCAA should), I agree that the hammering they take in criminal and civil courts will do ABSOLUTELY huge damage to PSU, especially the athletic program and football program there.

IMO, what PSU's leadership should do, if they have any grip on the reality of how putridly bad their own administration behaved since 1998, is take it upon themselves to completely shut down (for a period of at least 3 years) the entire football program. In other words, issue their own "death penalty". Those kids in the program? Let them continue their education on scholarship, if they wish, at PSU, but the NCAA needs allow them also to transfer immediately without any kind of requirement to sit out a year or semester before playing.

No remedy out there for this mess could possibly be as cleansing as one they impose upon themselves, as long as they also (once things run their course thru the court system) follow it up with instituting every possible safeguard to insure that their program is properly run and monitored in the future. Not only that, they must act swiftly and decisively to do everything they can to help those victims that were preyed upon by Sanduskey and dehumanized by the decisions of Spanier, Paterno, Schultz , and Curley. Public confession and profound apologies by both the University and the individuals involved also needs to be part of the equation at some point.

[WM Wolverine]

You're punishing kids who didn't do anything wrong; those that did wrong (basically the entire athletic department) are the ones who need punished... PSU's entire athletic department needs its house cleaned and imo will...

I don't know where this falls upon NCAA rules, I felt LOIC was fitting as the HC was overriding both the athletic director and university president. B10 punishments? Only necessary if the NCAA and civil punishments aren't enough though I'm of the belief the civil punishments will be rather massive.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Yeah well when you send a father to prison you are hurting his wife and kids even though they didn't do jack. Innocent people often get hurt due to association. Just they way it goes. Shit happens. PSU needs to be burned to the fucking ground.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Talent has explained it better than I can but the NCAA's ability to charge a school with LOIC isn't some catch-all policy where if any criminal behavior on the part of a school's administration takes place, the NCAA has the authority to sanction that member school. There has to be an actual NCAA regulation that was broken because that's where the NCAA's authority lies.

If you think the NCAA needs to take action, then cite which specific regulations were broken, and maybe make a case. And to this point, I haven't heard anyone actually cite any bylaws that were broken.

Most NCAA rules prevent one team from gaining an unfair competitive advantage over another. I'm very unconvinced that Penn State gained an advantage by hushing up Sandusky's perversions. That's very different from Tressel not disclosing the fact that a couple players received cash or gifts. There's a difference between not revealing information that would be very embarrassing to the university and and not revealing information that's giving you an unfair edge over other teams.

[Dr. Strangelove]

And another thing: so many people say this is about more than football and the solution needs to be so much bigger than football, and then proceed to offer a solution of "shut down the football program".

This scandal is largely the failure of a university administration, not it's football program. It involved two athletic department employees, certainly. But replace Joe with the Chair of the English Department and Sandusky with the department's longest-tenured Professor. Would people be calling for the closing of the English Department?

[Jeff Buchanan]

Google serch 101. osu folks have a hard time with that.

http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

http://www.athletics.wsu.edu/arc/Handbook/Files/Sportsmanship.pdf

Look, don't mean to make fun or make this a light hearted issue. It isn't but there is clear, clear rule breaking here, admittedly on soft sections where there might be some wiggle room, but my god man, no one is going to allow any kind of wiggle room in assigning both unethical behavior to the principals here (broke rules) and LOIC due to failure to monitor. In this case they monitored alright but didn't do a F'ing thinkg about it.

Ergo, well, you know.

PSU is and should be F'ed.

[Jeff Buchanan]

And another thing: so many people say this is about more than football and the solution needs to be so much bigger than football, and then proceed to offer a solution of "shut down the football program".

This scandal is largely the failure of a university administration, not it's football program. It involved two athletic department employees, certainly. But replace Joe with the Chair of the English Department and Sandusky with the department's longest-tenured Professor. Would people be calling for the closing of the English Department?

Give me a break, Dude. You are on the wrong side of this argument.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Google serch 101. osu folks have a hard time with that.

http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

http://www.athletics.wsu.edu/arc/Handbook/Files/Sportsmanship.pdf

Look, don't mean to make fun or make this a light hearted issue. It isn't but there is clear, clear rule breaking here, admittedly on soft sections where there might be some wiggle room, but my god man, no one is going to allow any kind of wiggle room in assigning both unethical behavior to the principals here (broke rules) and LOIC due to failure to monitor. In this case they monitored alright but didn't do a F'ing thinkg about it.

Ergo, well, you know.

PSU is and should be F'ed.

What NCAA rules were broken. Don't just say again and again how this demonstrates "lack of institutional control". LOIC refers to a failure to follow NCAA regulations.

So which NCAA rules were broken? They violated the "good sportsmanship' clause of the Pac12 handbook? Uh, ok

And how did Penn State GAIN an ADVANTAGE that other schools didn't have by covering this up?

[Tony G]

Give me a break, Dude. You are on the wrong side of this argument.

Actually you are on the wrong, i.e. knee jerk, side of this one. It's a criminal and civil matter. PSU is going to be eviscerated as is. IF the NCAA is going to involve themselves in this then they establish their liability in future cases.

If a college coach gets drunk at work, takes a school vehicle and kills someone, then it's not an issue for the NCAA. That's what the courts are for. Even if the AD and Pres knew the coach had a drinking problem, it's still not an issue for the NCAA. The school bears the liability for the employee's actions, not the NCAA.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Give me a break, Dude. You are on the wrong side of this argument.

You act like Penn State's going to "get off easy" unless the NCAA takes action.

Penn State has much bigger things to worry about than the f'n NCAA. They're on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in civil suits and restitution and the costs of rebuilding their image over the coming decades. All the major players are going to prison, will eventually lose their pensions, and Joe probably would be too if he were still alive and healthy. The Paterno family fortune might even get raided and his family made pretty broke by the time this is all said and done. The school's possibly going to face a DOE investigation, a Title IX investigation, yadda yadda.

All that's not enough in your mind? The football players need to be punished too?

[Jeff Buchanan]

OK ..... I'll leave this one to the court of public opinion and actual outcome, boys.

We'll talk again in a year.

[Tony G]

The CoPO wants a lynching, not fair and dispassionate justice.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Actually you are on the wrong, i.e. knee jerk, side of this one. It's a criminal and civil matter. PSU is going to be eviscerated as is. IF the NCAA is going to involve themselves in this then they establish their liability in future cases.

If a college coach gets drunk at work, takes a school vehicle and kills someone, then it's not an issue for the NCAA. That's what the courts are for. Even if the AD and Pres knew the coach had a drinking problem, it's still not an issue for the NCAA. The school bears the liability for the employee's actions, not the NCAA.

Thank you, yes, I think those calling for the program to be burned down are acting more out emotion than rational thought.

To be clear about LOIC: it is not a violation in and of itself. To make a judgment of LOIC, you first need an actual NCAA violation and then determine if LOIC took place.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Actually you are on the wrong, i.e. knee jerk, side of this one. It's a criminal and civil matter. PSU is going to be eviscerated as is. IF the NCAA is going to involve themselves in this then they establish their liability in future cases.

If a college coach gets drunk at work, takes a school vehicle and kills someone, then it's not an issue for the NCAA. That's what the courts are for. Even if the AD and Pres knew the coach had a drinking problem, it's still not an issue for the NCAA. The school bears the liability for the employee's actions, not the NCAA.

Fair enough ..... we'll see.

Don't know if you've read my several posts on this matter but I make a pretty clear case for double jeopardy (if you want to call it that). These offenses fall under at least two governing authorities both of which have the ability to investigate and impose punishments.