Forum Administration

[hack]

1. Linesman doesn't get it and seems like that won't change. (Still, you can see the good side.)

2. For whatever reason, linesman has way too much leeway here.

3. Act accordingly. Strike the right balance.

[lineygoblue]

He's definitely a lawyer.

Pulling out the rule book and looking for loopholes, so that he can remain.

Well played.

[Mike]

Losing one poster will not negatively impact the diversity of opinions on this board. There are still plenty of fans of different schools here and there won't be an echo chamber. Hell, there's enough diversity of thought just among Michigan fans for that to never happen. I wish AA would stay but if wants to show solidarity with Talent and leave, that's his business. Bottom line is there are MANY posters or would-be posters that have had enough of Talents shenanigans for about 15 years now. Enough is enough. Time to move on.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I've had an email exchange with talent and PMs with Linesman regarding the ban on talent. I've reviewed most of the posts from members here either supporting the ban or questioning it.

The first post by iam416 to be deleted was in the Hawaii post game thread. It wasn't deleted by Linesman. The reason given for the deletion was being an asshole. It read:

"M is clearly the best team in CFB and beyond elite. I mean, did you see what they did to Hawaii! It's unbelievable what HARBAUGH!!!! has done."

It's sass as I read it. Being an asshole is not grounds for deleting a post if I understand the Forum rules. The post in question being in a post game thread is not strictly against the rules or a reason for deleting a post but there has been requests to keep sass in the appropriate enemy camp threads. So, a gray area.

The mod that deleted the first post, deleted two others in other forums, the reasons: excessive trolling. Another mod then began deleting any post iam416 posted (a total of 7 sass posts were deleted). Linesman made a decision to formally ban talent from the forum by engaging the services of the web site owner.

The personal attacks talent posted, directed at Linesman, followed the 7 deleted posts. What precipitated the personal attack was talent's perception that he was unfairly targeted for the 7 posts initially deleted. He has no regrets for those posts. He regrets the personal attacks.

As closely as I can tell, there are 3/6 Mods either doing the deleting or supporting the deletions. There are 5 posters who have either voiced opposition to the ban or, in the case of one, offered an alternative (move offending posts to the osu thread). We've lost a valued poster from an enemy camp who is on record stating the ban isn't right.

Opinion: I've never been offended by talent's sass. It's part of football rivalries. I think there is majority support among forum mods and members for the football sass being limited to the enemy camp's thread. I find it incongruous, however, that sass, some of it pretty ugly, in other threads, is tolerated. So, it seems odd, actually unfair, to me that the football sass we find to be excessive trolling is always talent's.

I'm opposed to the ban on the grounds that what precipitated the personal attacks, as inappropriate as those were, is a legitimate gut reaction to talent's perception that he was targeted. The facts seem to support the view that he was. There is also some gray area in support of the mods doing the deleting, namely, sass should stay in the enemy camp's thread. The personal attacks subsequently posted by talent could be considered an offense whose penalty is banning.

I'm in the camp that believes banning serves no useful purpose. I do support moderation in the form of whistle blowing when things get out of hand or are clearly headed in that direction.

In my view, that's what should have been the first step in this episode. The second step should have been moving talent's posts to the osu thread and posting why that was done. I'm pretty sure that would have brought the sass posts in other threads to an end.

This is Linesmans forum. While he has taken a step I'm opposed to, I'll not abrogate the moderation duties I have been assigned by Linesman or leave in protest. What I would offer are my services to mediate among the aggrieved talent's return, although he may be done, and AA's return. A sort of detente.

[hack]

We don't have to have these periodic meltdowns if we just establish the lines and clarify what happens when they are crossed. No need for moderators to take on the burden of becoming judge/jury. The forum would be much better off on that basis. If it can't happen in this forum, maybe there's another where we could make that happen.

[WM Wolverine]

Can we at least keep talent in solitary in the OSU discussion? I enjoy his contrarin viewpoints most the time but too often he steps well beyond the line of being an asshole.

[hodgkal]

I sympathize with Liney on this issue as a general principle. Without his thoughtful and patient moderator approach we wouldn't have so many loyal posters who have stayed with this forum for up to 2 decades.

The only poster that I find consistently annoying has been talent, despite the fact he obviously knows football and is plenty smart. I can't believe he has a paying job considering all the hours he must spend daily posting here as well as probably other sites. Is it some sort of compensation for an inferiority complex?
If the majority want to tolerate all this I have no problem and will continue to ignore most of his comments.

And another thing. We had a political thread for a number of years but it began to get too personal and Liney wisely shut it down. Now we are in a second experiment on non-football topics and so far it has worked out pretty well. This needs close supervision because of the polarization it can aggravate and we don't want to alienate loyal UM football fans who may view politics from opposing perspectives.

This forum has been one of most enjoyable sites I've followed over these many years. Lots of great guys here. And early on we got Doug here who has added another fantastic dimension on home game days at Scio Church Road.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Can we at least keep talent in solitary in the OSU discussion? I enjoy his contrarin viewpoints most the time but too often he steps well beyond the line of being an asshole.

Sure, we can do that but it's not my place to decree it. I serve at Linesman's pleasure.

The damage has been done. Right or wrong, It's going to take a while for it to get repaired if it can be repaired at all.

Hate it that two forum members from enemy camps who both provided great insider information and commentary are gone/have withdrawn.

[Tslisher]

Just catching up on this issue. I think the well reasoned post that Jeff made about the thread of these events is about on target.

Yes - Talent crossed a line with personal insults directly at one individual with extremely crude language.

Yes, of course I've seen this on other forums. On of the reasons I like to be here, is the more or less civil tone. Have fun, some sass is fine, but personal attacks should not be tolerated. Yes, he was provoked by the removal of sass messages, but it still doesn't warrant the direct personal attack.

However, not having been the target of such personal attacks and as a result being able to look at this from the outside, I think instead that this situation calls for a reprimand, rather than a total banning. I've enjoyed Talent's observations when he's posting about football rather than just trying to get a rise out of people.

I'd suggest that instead of a perma-ban, that Talent be banned or restricted from posting for a week as a consequence of going over the edge with his personal attack. Slap his hand, then see if he can be a better boy in the future.

Liney - your moderation of this form (with others) is one of the things that has kept me reading since the Freep days. I appreciate the work you and the mods to to keep things civil and keep this from devolving into a 'Bucknuts' or Mgoblog form. I'll keep reading (and occasionally posting) here with or without Talent.

[UMStan White]

Personally I don't see where Talent's crude comments were any less offensive than those homophobic posts between Hack and OP which went on for months across several topics. Nothing was done to curb it and no posts were deleted or moved. They were simply allowed to carry on and those of us who wanted to post something meaningful had to wade through their bullshit. If you are going to ban Talent for a crude post, then why weren't Hack and OP banned or at least admonished? I am one who votes to retain Talent. As I have said before, he is sharp and well informed. If you post crap he calls you on it. He has a valid point when he argues that the "enforcement" of nebulous rules is totally subjective in this forum. I would argue that more people have left this forum because of all the irrelevant crap that is posted than because of anything that Talent has posted. What are we down to? Approximately 10 people who post regularly? And now you want to kick out on of the most prolific and insightful posters merely because of a crude comment that is in line with so many other postings? Hell, Geezer accused me of practicing bestiality in the political discussion thread. His accusation constitutes legal slander. I don't see any attempt to ban his sorry ass. (Nor am I asking that he be banned. His outrageous posts merely enforce the fact that he is incapable of carrying on a cogent discussion without stooping to name calling of the basest nature.)( I would point out however that Jeff who deleted several of my posts for "name calling" did nothing to delete or ban someone who has committed legal slander. So goes life. Just understand and accept that certain rule apply to certain poster only and the deciding factor is not whether you are an OSU fan posting in a UM forum))(Doc I too have wondered how Talent has so much time to post, especially during the work day and then I remember that he has a job with the government so he has a lot of free time on his hands.)

[Mike]

Yesterday's blowup is not an isolated incident. In fact it's not even the first time it's happened. We went through this exact same thing at WC where Talent was banned, then moderated, then I think he quit for a while, then he disappeared completely when Tressel was fired for cheating. This is a 15 year dance and people are getting sick of it. Frankly, I enjoy most of Talents posts but I'm not in the mood to spend all season reading his denigrating posts about all things Michigan football. I'm just not. Everyone here can handle some sass. Everyone here can handle opposing viewpoints. There is only ONE poster here who continually has these types of problems. A habitual line-stepper, if you will. If people want to see the forum devolve into an ESPN comment section than have at it but count me out.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Stan, just to be clear, in the miscellaneous thread, I stepped in and blew the whistle when the name calling started between you, Jon and Geezer. At Linesmans request, that's my thread to moderate as Linesman wants no part of it. I deleted one line in one post of yours that contained a personal attack after a general warming I gave about stopping the name calling and personal attacks. No offense intended toward you.

On OP and Hack's interchanges. While it's a matter of perceptions, to me all of their stuff was good natured; maybe because I know OP pretty well - loves to light fires or throw grenades into the room then stand back and watch what happens. I find it funny. Pretty sure Hack enjoyed the fun. Sorry to assume you did, Hack but it seemed to me you played along and very effectively in the reparte'.

Anyway, I'm disappointed in all of this. Mike, I get your point. I might have suggested we handle it differently if we had, through PM, discussed this before Linesman acted. That didn't happen. I got a PM from Linesman that he was banning talent and that's the first I heard of anything going down.

[lineygoblue]

Sure, we can do that but it's not my place to decree it. I serve at Linesman's pleasure.

The damage has been done. Right or wrong, It's going to take a while for it to get repaired if it can be repaired at all.

Hate it that two forum members from enemy camps who both provided great insider information and commentary are gone/have withdrawn.

1. You don't serve at my pleasure. You serve because you're a core long term member here, an alumni, and because you deserve it. You know this. I've offered to turn the forum over to others before. You opposed that. One of the reasons I'm still here is because of you and your support.

I wish you'd talk to me about this. You know how to reach me.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I'll call, Liney. We'll talk. I'm with Sean and famiily this weekend and have taken too much time already being upset and disappointed about this. Not at you or Mike or anyone who posts here but about how all this went down.

When I say I Serve at your pleasure I don't mean that sarcastically. I'm just one of your soldiers in this operation and like any good soldier serve at your direction.

This is a great place with a lot of good friendships formed through it and because of it. It has also been a place where, for the most part, we've exchanged ideas and views about important issues beyond football freely. Then there's football. I'm better informed on the issues and football because of this forum. It's just discouraging to me that we have these meltdowns that sort of shuts everyone up for a week or so. Hope it all blows over.

[lineygoblue]

Jeff - I sent you a PM with my cell phone number.

I think my number has changed from the last time you called.