The Rest of College Football

[UMStan White]

Jesus. do you guys ever work? No wonder Talent failed in the billable hours universe.

[Prime2]

[hack]

Guffaw!

[Dr. Strangelove]

How did Phil Jackson do when he didn't have Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant? Those guys receive a ton of credit but Phil always had a terrific and underrated supporting cast that could really rebound, play great defense and had elite 3pt shooters...

It's hard to argue against his resume but Phil was always a heavy favorite to win the title every season...

-

UFM is the best coach in CFB except HARBAUGH!!!

UFM's W/L, NT's that Talent listed speak for themselves. What he's done at Ohio has put himself (nearly?) in a class by himself among CFB head coaches and is on his way to earning all-time type status.

How did Chuck Daly do when he coached the Nets, Cavs, and Magic and didn't have a bunch of Hall of Famers? Never advanced beyond the first round? Oh.

Maybe I missed it when I blinked but...Larry Brown won how many titles while coaching the Charlotte Bobcats?

[hack]

The Bobcats are one of three teams in the NBA that had never made it to the playoffs before Larry Brown arrived.

But forget that -- use Pat Riley as the comparison instead. But for John Starks going 3-18 in a Game 7 Riley would have won with three different teams and won in a stronger era. He once built his championship team from scratch and the other time turning the .500ish Knicks into a contender. Two different cores with the Heat, albeit he wasn't coach the latter time. But in truth, Riley is the best coach in the history of the game and one of the better executives as well. I don't think it's close.

I used LB as a comparison because he and Phil are an excellent contrast in how many different ways there are to succeed as a coach. They're at two opposite ends of the spectrum, as Phil would never coach without an all-NBA talent or two on the roster and LB didn't care. It's a great comparison and an interesting discussion if you'd care to have it properly, because there's compelling arguments for both.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Larry Brown often builds from scratch but he's also been inclined to bolt at the first sign of trouble as well.

I've grown to have more sympathy for Phil Jackson over the years. I too used to criticize him for "only winning with talent"...but when you stop and think about it, all coaches become great with talented teams. Name me a coach in any major sport who won multiple titles with far less talent than his competitors.

Riley's best coaching job may have been the Knicks but even there he had Patrick Ewing. I don't see how Riley's tenure with the Lakers was any different than Phil Jackson. Riley had a ridiculous amount of talent on those teams and he didn't build that franchise. Rather than stick around and oversee the decline, he also fled. Just like Brown or Phil Jackson.

[iam416]

Riley needed 7 games to beat a Jordan-less Bulls the year Starks single-handedly won game 6 before hacking it up in game 7.

Also, Riley's Knicks were ghastly. Just a total abortion of a style. They won as many titles as they deserved.

Phil won 11 and I don't think any of those 11 went to a game 7. I can't recall much more than 3 seven game series total in his 11 title runs. Knicks. Kings. One or two others?

[hack]

11, I think? Against the Celtics, who blew a 13-point lead with 8 to go or so in a Game 7. But that's a point in my favor -- Phil rode overwhelming talent to rings in a weak era or his teams gave up halfway through a series and were shooed away. He had uncommonly few chances to prove himself in the chess match of a tight series.

But the point is this -- Riley won like Phil did, arriving when the table was set and holding serve with an elite roster, but he also won by building his own teams in a dual role. He's gone to places with bad/mediocre teams and turned them into champions or contenders.

LB never did that. Nobody ever let him control the roster, and with good reason. Longevity in any one spot is definitely a knock on him, but he's wrote the book on all the very different ways to win basketball games -- he made bad teams good and he bad good teams great and he's excelled in college and the pros and he's taken over sub-500 teams midseason and gotten them to the playoffs.

Either way, the whole point is that an excellent coach can prove himself as such by chasing rings or by taking lesser teams and making them demonstrably better. More than one way to evaluate a coach. And always an interesting discussion if you guys want to stop trying to prove linesman right about you and discuss it like grownups rather than filtering every little bit possible through your rivalry lens.

[iam416]

That's quite the analysis: either we agree with you or we aren't interested in serious discussion.

A lot of folks, including myself, would say there's absolutely no fucking comparison between Phil and Brown. Doesn't mean Brown wasn't a very good coach, though. But, hey, I guess I'm not a grownup. I'm just a fool who relies on objective evidence and facts, neither of which carry much currency around here.

Riley barely beat Phil's Bulls WITHOUT Jordan. In his 11 title runs he played a total of 5 series that went to 7 games. His teams were dominant in the playoffs. And he coached teams that went 72-10 and 69-13 in back-to-back seasons. Brown just doesn't rate next to Jackson. Riley is closer, but not really that close.

or his teams gave up halfway through a series and were shooed away

I guess you can only prove this statement wrong so many times. See above, M Fan Flat Earth Society

[Dr. Strangelove]

Phil is a contemporary of Larry Brown and Riley...so if he was only winning because it was a 'weak era" then they were failing to win titles in a weak era.

All but one of Riley's titles came with a team enormously talented so if we're going to hold it agaisnt Phil for winning with superstars, I don't see why you shouldn't hold Riley to the same standard. LB's Pistons team wasn't quite on the same level but that was hardly a team devoid of talent either.

[hack]

The 80s were widely recognized as the heyday. Magic/Kareem/Worthy against Bird/McHale/Parrish. Riley's teams ended up getting the better of the greatest rivalry in the history of that sport. I've pointed out that Riley built three of his four championship-caliber teams, and coached two of them. Phil never did that.

If it helps you two be civil, leave LB out of this. Phil>LB. Not >>>>>>>, but, yes, >. Obviously we're not going to be able to ponder the comparison like grownups as relates to the point about there being multiple ways to achieve as a coach, so let's dumb it down to Phil vs Riley and see if you children can follow along.

[froot loops]

Larry Brown showed his true colors as a coach in 2005. What a fraud. Chauncey had to run the team during the playoffs because Mr. Play The Right Way was actively trying to find another job during the playoff run. Big Chief Triangle in a rout.

[hack]

Derek Fisher in '04 was Chauncey in '05. Brown made Jackson look like a fool in that series.

And then a year later Brown got his ass handed to him by Popovich. Thoroughly outcoached, in part because the Pistons were so aint rough/aint right that the Spurs had a week to prep.

[froot loops]

Brown was in the midst if abandoning that team. It wasn't so much being outcoached as it was an abdication of responsibility. His actions in 2005 were thoroughly deplorable. Just a total phony who the league finally figured out.

[iam416]

Sad to see Hack join the Flat Earth Society.

Yeah, it's a close call between Phil Jackson and Larry Brown.

Riley won 5 titles -- pathetically pilfering the 5th from Van Gundy and then leading Miami to trash seasons before quitting. He made one Finals with the Knicks in a season when they need a full 7 games to beat Jackson....WITHOUT JORDAN! His Miami teams in the mid-90s consistently choked in the playoffs with the exception one season when the Bulls assraped them.

His Laker teams were splendid. He didn't build shit though. I mean, he wasn't the coach in 1980 when the Lakers won the title. He wasn't their in 1981 when the Lakers were supergood but upset. He took over barely into the 81-82 season with a team that had Magic, Kareem and Silk Wilkes. They then added Worthy in an obvious draft. He didn't build shit in LA. That's like giving Jackson credit for building the 2nd Bulls run b/c he added Rodman or something.

Jackson >>>>>>> Brown.

Jackson >> Riley.