M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

ethically questionable behavior involving players and coaches has gone on since the very first game of football was played in America

Yeah. I mean, Harvard and Yale were buying players for those big games before the turn of the 19th century. What's interesting is the ethical considerations, especially during a time when they weren't (at least, I don't think they were) breaking rules (it's quite possible that their ringers did, in fact, violate some sort of rule). Obviously, you can be unethical without breaking rules (e.g., in today's game, we all scream about recruiting shenanigans from every other school but our own). It's an interesting question, if academic.

What's less academic, IMO, is the the value of football to the University. And as that value increases, it creates an enviroment where it is rational to, heh, "avoid" NCAA rules. The benefits of building a big-time program or generating big-time winning far outweigh the potential costs -- the relatively low risk you'll ever be caught and then the modest risk that the NCAA will truly harm your program. Indeed, the hit you take to your program in terms of reputation is transient and will dissipate quickly if you can change the message. One could, I suspect, make a rational business case *for* rampant cheating. I know you understand this full well, and it's what bothers you most about CFB.

It's interesting dynamic -- the intersection of money and, IMO, amoral rules (and, of course, PSU apparently took the same *risk* with rules that are obviously morally-based.) When people break rules and they don't feel like they're doing something wrong -- you better carry a giant f'n stick to keep them in line. And the NCAA certainly does that with athletes and coaches. But it doesn't, really, with institutions b/c that's the source of their power. Nothing new or insightful. Just the way it is.

And, yes, I think this past year has made it abundantly clear to Ohio State that football carries considerably more weight than its bottom-line revenue. And they've approached it as such. But, to be fair, M and Brandon are squarely on board, too. They paid Mattison tons of cash (deservedly so) and were, I think, willing to pay Harbaugh a ton of money (and I know I'll be corrected on this if I'm wrong). I think Mattison + UFM and his staff = join the arms race or get left behind situation in the B10. I think most will join, which will, hopefully, lead to an improved conference.

[Jeff Buchanan]

And, yes, I think this past year has made it abundantly clear to Ohio State that football carries considerably more weight than its bottom-line revenue. And they've approached it as such. But, to be fair, M and Brandon are squarely on board, too. They paid Mattison tons of cash (deservedly so) and were, I think, willing to pay Harbaugh a ton of money (and I know I'll be corrected on this if I'm wrong). I think Mattison + UFM and his staff = join the arms race or get left behind situation in the B10. I think most will join, which will, hopefully, lead to an improved conference.

If I'm not mistaken, Don Canham, when he came aboard in 1968, led the nation in turning football into a marketable commodity by selling the shit out of it. Maybe that's where it all started, or around that time anyway. Back in that day, and as I remember it, it was still pure sport. Now it's entertainment more than sport .... and not that I have a problem with that except what that devolution has done to the egalitarian nature of sports in America in general, and collegiate sports in particular. The notion that it is a game to be enjoyed by all, especially the students, may get hijacked by soaring ticket prices. Something that has dampened my enjoyment of Baseball and Hockey and to a lesser extent pro-football because I never went to a lot of those games.

But, overall, I think the game of CFB is potentially in danger because it might get taken over by the arms race for coaches that has infiltrated professional sports for players (I heard today Albert Pujols is trying to decide which $200 Million contract he's going to take ..... that's TWO HUNDRED MILLION!!! ..... a QUARTER OF A BILLION). Nobody is worth that, unless and of course, you can get away with charging 200 bucks a head to watch him hit a baseball over the wall in center field). Ridiculous.

[iam416]

I forgot about Canham. Yeah, he was definitely at the forefront. A very good AD.

Here's the thing -- when Canham and Bo come to M and essentially, IMO, build the modern day M program -- or, if you prefer, revive the program -- the inevitable end was massively increased demand. And with it, comes the money, the ticket prices, etc. I guess I don't think there was a good way to put the brakes on once they got that train moving.

So, you have the pre-Canham in the mid-60s when M Stadium was shamefully barren and anyone could get a ticket day of game OR the fruits of the Canham/Bo revitalization where every game is sold out and M keeps adding seats and sky boxes and all that stuff.

I really think it was an either/or -- either you're all in and you build a tremendous program or you're not. What probably made that so is the CFA and the efforts of Universities to own their TV rights. Coupled with ESPN/cable boom, the money poured in.

[Jamie H]

So did Stoops turn OSU down because he wanted to "spend more time with his family"?

At least in his case he'd be telling the truth.

[Jeff Buchanan]

So, yeah, for sure, money pouring in and all that .......

But I'm not sure that is the elixir of good that it is made out to be (sounding more and more like a socialist pig these days but I was warned about this phenomena of easing conservative views as one ages by others older and wiser than I).

Every one and his brother dumped on James Duderstatd, who led a nearly successful campaign to keep Bill Martin from building "luxury boxes" and spoiling the Michigan stadium, for the masses, we all know and love (clearly, its a much better place now).

But he was fundamentally right when he argued against the drift in college sports toward very expensive and unaffordable entertainment warning that it would ultimately seal its doom. Even gee argued a similar line, and very eloquently I might add, near the end of his term at Vandy .... but before he came to a school with a marquee football program whose success was a value adding commodity or whose failure could be very costly. Camelion.

I don't know that its worth trying to ride a different wave and advocate for a different culture for college sports, try to find balance (like the NCAA has tried to do and is essentially getting bull dozed by other powerful people with money). The momentum established in the current direction of college sports becomes greater every season. Maybe the sensible thing to do is just be an idle spectator. Age does that. But the risk of standing idly by is to watch the devolution of the most powerful aspect of American society, its educational institutions, supplanted by a world of cheesy, expensive entertainment that no one can afford because a robust economy is non-existent.

[iam416]

Personally, I don't think the bell can be unrung.

I don't think, however, that the issues surrounding CFB necessarily harm Universities as a whole. Anecdotally, Ohio State has undergone a massive transformation from when I was there in terms of developing campus buildings and, more importantly, immediately off-campus areas and admissions selectivity. The results have been noticeable in the dimwitted "rankings". All this while OSU football program was elevated to another level of national prominence under Coach Tressel. I don't think one had much to do with the other -- I think it shows, though, that you can be a huge football school AND improve your academic reputation. FWIW.

Anyway, good chat. One that will surely be revisited many times over in some form or another.

[SeattleLionsFan]

There is an inherent tension, that cannot be reconciled IMO, between athletics as a valuable component of a well rounded education and athletics as an advertising arm of the institution (like a NASCAR team).

Eventually the NCAA will have to recognize the tension and go down one road or the other.

[entropy]

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Ohio State sought and received a waiver from the NCAA that allows it to have two football coaching staffs at the same time: One under Luke Fickell to coach the Buckeyes in their upcoming bowl game and another led by incoming coach Urban Meyer that only handles recruiting.

Athletic director Gene Smith called the split staffs "normal in some transitions."

The Buckeyes play Florida in the Gator Bowl on Jan. 2. But Meyer and any new staffers are not permitted to coach any players and can only recruit. The NCAA waiver specifies that no more than 10 coaches - and no more than seven at any one time - may be involved in recruiting.

There have been rumblings from other schools that the waiver gives Ohio State a competitive advantage.

[iam416]

Tom Herman will likely be part of the "new" staff as QB Coach. Herman is ISU's OC.

[hodgkal]

I thought we were to receive the NCAA decision re tattoo-gate the first week of December. Anybody heard anything? Not that I expect them to exact any real punishment. And now the Penn State situation seems to have eclipsed everything.

[entropy]

they did reach a decision.. they get two staffs to help recruit and prepare for a bowl game.

[Mike]

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Ohio State sought and received a waiver from the NCAA that allows it to have two football coaching staffs at the same time: One under Luke Fickell to coach the Buckeyes in their upcoming bowl game and another led by incoming coach Urban Meyer that only handles recruiting.

Athletic director Gene Smith called the split staffs "normal in some transitions."

The Buckeyes play Florida in the Gator Bowl on Jan. 2. But Meyer and any new staffers are not permitted to coach any players and can only recruit. The NCAA waiver specifies that no more than 10 coaches - and no more than seven at any one time - may be involved in recruiting.

There have been rumblings from other schools that the waiver gives Ohio State a competitive advantage.

Note to other high profile programs: If you aren't currently already doing so... CHEAT YOUR F'N ASSES OFF!!.

[iam416]

I thought we were to receive the NCAA decision re tattoo-gate the first week of December

From what I've read, very soon. Within the next 10-14 days.

[Mike]

I imagine it will include a hand-written apology from Miles Brand for putting ohio through such a tumultuous ordeal and beg for forgiveness.

[Pasadena Blue]

the two staff exception is just ridiculous. Big advantage for UFM while Hoke and other coaches actually have to prepare their teams for a bowl game.

F' the NCAA and F' Ohio