M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[Mike]

Again, I appreciate you coming back and sharing your take. Once ohio was essentially "vindicated" I half expected you would.

"Oh, and to be clear -- it's not unreasonable to think there's more to the situation than has been proven. It's not unreasonable to think more than the Tat5 + Dorian Bell had some sort of relationship with Rife selling memorabilia. It's not unreasonable to think TP was getting handouts. What is unreasonable, IMO, is to assert those allegations as god's-honest fact."

I fully understand that you can't convict on circumstantial evidence. That's why it is so easy to skate the NCAA. Without subpoena power there isn't much they can do. ohio was wise to purge Tressel and Pryor from the program so they are safely out of reach from NCAA investigators. Couple that with the primary source of the Dohrman article refusing to go on the record for fear of reprisals and there isn't much the NCAA can do. There really isn't any reason for major programs to clean up their act when Hellen Keller is the babysitter. It doesn't mean ohio state is innocent, it just means they won't be found guilty - a big distinction, IMO.

Anyway, my point about the 49 of 50 states remark was not to use that as some sort of factual evidence to be used against ohio but rather to demonstrate how the die-hards in ohio seemingly have their heads in the sand. Hell, I think most of you people feel like victims in all this. I'll ask you directly: Are you ashamed of ohio state for conducting its football program in a fashion that cost them their head coach, star QB, and major violations? Does it bother you in the least that perception around the country of ohio state football is that they are dirty cheaters and Tressel's 10 years of success were a result of underhanded means? If so, you will be the first ohio fan I know of to show the slightest bit of contrition. Frankly, I find buckeye nation to be cult-like - in a bad way.

[iam416]

I believe that this is presently, and has been for a long time, the means by which elite football programs who operate in the gray areas, even though it is unethical, entice elite recruits to sign and reward theri loyalty once they are singed and are playing.

Yeah, well, there's not much, if anything, to suggest that Coach Tressel recruited improperly. Whether recruits to any school know about the "$100 handshake" culture, I dunno.

As for Ohio State, I can tell you one story. I used to valet at a restaurant in town. It had an upstairs bar/restaurant where a couple big-time boosters hung out (or so I was told). At least once a weekend, sometimes twice, Vrabel and Finkes (sometimes Fickell, but not so often) would come and and go upstairs and hang out with those guys. I have zero doubt that NCAA rules were broken.

I also think the same thing goes on at nearly every D-1 school of any consequence which, you'll be happy to know, includes M (now that it's the Hoke Era and RichGod is gone!).

The question, I suppose, is scale. But as a principle, I don't get upset, at all, about "$100 handshakes". Then again, I thought the amateurism rules for the Olympics were batshit crazy and would support, in principle, an increased scholarship amount for collegiate athletes, though the specifics always get really sticky.

[iam416]

Again, I appreciate you coming back and sharing your take. Once ohio was essentially "vindicated" I half expected you would.

It was more a question of when the final parameters of the allegations would be established. The press, I think, has exhausted its stories as best evidenced by Channel 10 (columbus) reporting that Tressel disclosed the Cicero tip to OSU in December. So, the targets aren't moving any more. It makes for a quicker, easier response.

I fully understand that you can't convict on circumstantial evidence. That's why it is so easy to skate the NCAA. Without subpoena power there isn't much they can do. ohio was wise to purge Tressel and Pryor from the program so they are safely out of reach from NCAA investigators.

Just to be clear, those are significant penalties Ohio State incurred to "skate" the NCAA. So, I wouldn't call that skating -- I would call that imposing penalities on your program as a result of NCAA rules violations.

Couple that with the primary source of the Dohrman article refusing to go on the record for fear of reprisals and there isn't much the NCAA can do.

The other problem, as noted above, with Dohrman's source is that the actual evidence supported a conclusion that 8 of the 9 current players did NOT trade memorabilia for tattoos. I mean, Ohio State admitted to the Tat5 and then acknowledge 1 of the 9 -- it's not like they won't conceded that violation if it happened. But surely you can allow for the possiblity that Storm Klein, a guy with zero tattoos, might not have done it. Or John Simon, who can meticulously document each of his tattoos and where he received them.

Hell, I think most of you people feel like victims in all this. I'll ask you directly: Are you ashamed of ohio state for conducting its football program in a fashion that cost them their head coach, star QB, and major violations?

Ohio State opened the door and press frenzy was on. Look, Ohio State IS the Big Ten. Ohio State is one of the biggest programs in CFB. Jim Tressel's hypocrisy was too delicious -- the ultimate conservative republican cheats on his wife story. The press had an agenda -- to sell their stories -- and they did it. I think some of the reporting was shoddy. But Ohio State isn't a victim.

As for "ashamed" of Ohio State? No. Am I disappointed in Coach Tressel? 100%. I wish he would have just sent the Cicero e-mails along. It was a terrible day for me when he "resigned." But, whatever wrong he did, he's paid the ultimate professional price. Am I disappointed in TP? Yes. And, frankly, from what I've read and heard from various OSU folks, ashamed of the way he conducted himself.

Does it bother you in the least that perception around the country of ohio state football is that they are dirty cheaters and Tressel's 10 years of success were a result of underhanded means? If so, you will be the first ohio fan I know of to show the slightest bit of contrition. Frankly, I find buckeye nation to be cult-like - in a bad way.

At this stage, I don't care what the perception is. What's the point? Sure, I'd prefer the world to idolize Ohio State and for the legions to sing Carmen Ohio. The public perception would bother me more if I thought it had more basis in fact. I won't, however, lose sleep over what the American public believes and doesn't believe. I mean, again, not to harp on this, but I guarantee you 49 of 50 states think Ohio State got caught by Yahoo instead of self-reporting. If they were truly a dirty program, then we're not even having this discussion. We all know that.

[Jeff Buchanan]

"Yeah, well, there's not much, if anything, to suggest that Coach Tressel recruited improperly. Whether recruits to any school know about the "$100 handshake" culture, I dunno.'

"You dunno" ..... and here my friend is where we get to the crux of the problem facing osu. I don't know either but I am highly suspicious and ANY ONE watching the mess in c-bus has to be blind to not be suspicious. The NCAA is watching. One of those COI panel members is going to be suspicious (I hope and pray) not withstanding your decent explanation to me of why osu didn't fire tressel right away (I don't agree. I'll address later).

I'd say there is a very good chance that tressel had a well established network of deep pocketed alumni and supporters of osu who were able to entice instate players through employment "opportunities" during HS (happens all the time in the SEC ..... and the employee does nothing but pick up a check; I can name names and programs but I think you know about this) and payments while in school (those "$100 hand shakes" you acknowledge are probably occurring) as reimbursement for the decision to enroll in a particular school.

There is enough evidence that tressel had this going on at YSU so, yes, there is nothing factual at present to support my contention it's going on at osu but there is enough circumstantial evidence to support that it is going on. You cannot seriously think this sort of thing DOES NOT give schools who support and engage in it and then have plausible denability when the NCAA (or guys like Dohrman come sniffing around) that they are involved does not give them competitive advantages.

Is this shit going on under the table enough to light a fire under the ass of the NCAA to do something about it? No and I just wrote a letter to Emmert suggesting this was a problem he had to address by getting College Presidents to acknowledge it is going on and kill it by giving the NCAA the power to compel testimony (I'm for either a re-chartering of the NCAA under a new set of more clearly written rules and enhanced powers of enforcement or shit-canning the whole organization and starting over).

[iam416]

I'd say there is a very good chance that tressel had a well established network of deep pocketed alumni and supporters of osu who were able to entice instate players through employment "opportunities" during HS (happens all the time in the SEC ..... and the employee does nothing but pick up a check; I can name names and programs but I think you know about this) and payments while in school (those "$100 hand shakes" you acknowledge are probably occurring) as reimbursement for the decision to enroll in a particular school.

I would vehemently disagree. But this is purely subjective opinion. We might as well argue about Santa Claus.

There is enough evidence that tressel had this going on at YSU so, yes, there is nothing factual at present to support my contention it's going on at osu but there is enough circumstantial evidence to support that it is going on.

One player at YSU. If you are equating that to a "well established network of deep pocketed alumni and supporters of osu who were able to entice instate players through employment 'opportunities'" then so be it. I would, again, vehemently disagree.

And that's not even taking into account Mr. Isaac's own fierce assertions that Coach Tressel didn't know about his under the table dealings with Mr. Monus.

You cannot seriously think this sort of thing DOES NOT give schools who support and engage in it and then have plausible denability when the NCAA (or guys like Dohrman come sniffing around) that they are involved does not give them competitive advantages.

First, you're assuming this is a recruiting tool. I'm not at all sold on that. In fact, I think it massively risky to try to entice a recruit -- who may eschew your program for your rival -- with promises of no-work jobs and whatever other schemes you've concocted. Let's take, e.g., Mr. Kalis. If your theory is true, then he commited to OSU for the money. It would seem odd, in that case, that the school he ended up at didn't offer him something similar. Crazy talk.

Second, even if it were a recruiting tool, the more widespread it is, the less of an advantage it is. I absolutely believe "$100 handshakes" are pervasive. Even at your hallowed M (BTW, us Ohio folk know plenty about Warren and Massilon M boosters...heh).

Is this shit going on under the table enough to light a fire under the ass of the NCAA to do something about it? No and I just wrote a letter to Emmert suggesting this was a problem he had to address by getting College Presidents to acknowledge it is going on and kill it by giving the NCAA the power to compel testimony (I'm for either a re-chartering of the NCAA under a new set of more clearly written rules and enhanced powers of enforcement or shit-canning the whole organization and starting over).

Yeah, so the here's the thing about the subpoena power -- the NCAA has it over member institutions and their players. The can compel testimony of players and coaches. The schools signed up for that. What they can't do is compel the testimony of folks who didn't agree to be part of the NCAA. The NCAA can't subpoena you -- or me. And for good f'n cause. To change that, you need a federal law, not the agreement of college presidents. College presidents can't get together and say, yeah, the NCAA can subpoena Jeff Buchanan. They don't have the authority. And the only way they get that authority is through Federal legislation.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Points taken ...... I was not aware of the NCAA's power to compel testimony from its members. Check.

We'll just agree to disagree.

Agree, substantive factual evidence does not support the conclusion that tressel had such a network while at YSU. Circumstantial evidence does, as well as support the notion that it existed for him at osu. We are going to disagree. Forget arguing about Santa.

I remain suspicious of coach tressel and the likelihood of a well established network of "friends" who take care of the needs of HS players who might be interested in attending osu. He has no control over it (he does not need it) and that is purposeful so as to provide plausible deniability. This kind of thing becomes an enticing sort of culture if it is known it exits and the Rife circumstance suggests it does exist at osu. You are a big time college athlete looking forward to megabucks in the NFL. Would you rather have a place to hang out life Rife's in c-bus or would you rather go to study hall? Right, no recruiting advantge here.

Those HCs that engage in the practice we are discussing are not stupid people. Like our US legislators who take benefits from lobbyists, I will guarantee you that there are players and coaches taking benefits ..... it is a cancer on our system of governance in the US just like it is on college sports.

We can disagree with each other on this for as long as you would like to but it is not likely to be productive. You are as convinced that it does not go on at osu and I am convinced it does ...... andto a much lesser extent at Michigan but you would probably disagree with that too. We can agree to disagree like most fans of two opposing football programs will now and again.

I have missed the repartee. You are one of the best.

[iam416]

Yeah, FTR, I don't think M has any sort of system in place where recruits know they're in store for under-the-table benefits when they arrive. There's also no question in my mind that good M players get handshake deals and that everywhere athletes, well, good ones, get improper benefits. I think it begs the question a bit as to whether the benefits ought to be improper. But that's a bit of a tangent. And I'm really not into the "everyone else is doing it defense" -- this is just more of a general comment on CFB per our discussion.

It was good chatting, Buchanan. Wasting most of a day doing nothing productive. Reminds me the halcyon days of old when my beloved Buckeyes were in the capable hands of Coach Tressel.

I'm booking my tickets to Omaha this week. Very excited. Though, I have to confess -- I'm far less excited knowing that I'll be most likely be watching the Joe Bauserman Experience. Goodness. I guess the best hope is for stellar O-line play and for the bevy of talented RBs to step up. Oh, and defense. Coach Tressel once won 14 straight games with Craig Krenzel. It's conceivable OSU could straggle up to 10 wins this season. We'll see.

[iam416]

BTW, in a great irony, TP might not be eligible for the supplemental draft because the NCAA may say that he still has eligiblity left, i.e., he wasn't going to be suspended beyond the 5 games he was already up for. TP has, potentially, managed to screw himself by not violating enough NCAA rules. Heh heh. Jesus, I'm laughing to keep from crying.

[SeanB]

Maybe he'll admit to a few more and then he can have his draft and we M fans can have our cake and eat it too!!

[iam416]

Hush. Heh. He could probably admit to another $1000 of illegal benefits and that would finish him. Christ. That would be hilariously painful.

[Optimus Prime]

TP violated countless NCAA rules and regulations while attending OSU has proven to be a simple ruse. He was paid thousands of dollars in "Cash & Prizes" by friends of the program. Unfortunately when he quit like the "Disgraced Senator", the NCAA lost its leverage to compel him to fully disclose the scope and breadth of his nefarious and sordid activities.

Frankly he will never see another payday like the gig he had going at Ohio State which helps explain his reluctance to leave...3rd-string thightend at best IF any NFL team takes a chance.

100K in Tats and Jim Tressel never noticed or thought to ask him, how does a 20 year old come up with that kinda cash?

[Jeff Buchanan]

So, talent ..... me thinks you will be back ......

When, through its cheating way, osu has managed to climb back on top, as unethical as that climb will be, and you have some sass to rub in our faces.

It is good to have you silenced in that regard but I use that term to describe your situation reservedly; you haven't changed one bit.

You have our address. I'll be waiting.

[iam416]

Ha. Good chatting. As I said, I really am more or less through with the trifling idiocy of forums and such. Heh. I dedicated 10 years of my life to being the most triflingest idiot of them all. More than my fill for several lifetimes.

I'll drop in for The Game and probably when the NCAA finally settles accounts. And perhaps when Ohio State hires Urban Meyer. But believe me, it will be few and far between. I can hear the sobbing and wailing of the disappointed already.

[WM Wolverine]

Step 1 is denial, still seems some of you Ohio guys haven't gotten past this.

[geo weidl]

Ohio State on Tuesday declared Terrelle Pryorineligible for the 2011 season and banned the former starting quarterback from associating with the program for five years.

tp's ticket to the nfl, courtesy of o-lie-o for not telling it like it is.