M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[WM Wolverine]

MSU btw was 7-6 in '12, went 13-1 in '13. I don't think the difference between where M is and where they want to be is that enormous. Like you, I question whether Hoke can take them there. I'm more and more worried Hoke's upside is a 10-2 type regular season like he had in '11 and very concerned about the lack of improvement/innovation from Borges' offense.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Fair enough, WM ..... I really appreciate your insight on recruiting. I have no clue in that area.

But I have no room for looking through maze and blue colored glasses anymore. Too many are still doing that ... or clinging to the unfounded optimism that was usually rewarded by teams that were coached by Bo and to a certain extent Mo and Lloyd. Those coaches spanned nearly a half century of decent Michigan football, during which they were always in the national conversation.

As I see it, those times are gone and the harsh reality of the failure of M football is upon us. I appreciate your more balanced outlook. I'm just pissed off.

[WM Wolverine]

As someone who followed recruiting extremely closely, I cautioned everyone about M being 'mediocre' (I was thinking 8-4 however) after the Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham, group graduated...

Tressel truly did build a wall around Ohio and won nearly every recruiting battle head-to-head against M, starting around '03 till his 'retirement.' Even kids who we were told grew up M fans ended up at Ohio. Add in to that, the talent in the state of M was lousy outside of 3-4 recruits per class for much of that decade...

The recruiting sites generally gave M recruits good grades but I've always felt M, ND, Texas, Miami, Florida State and a handful of schools recruits get a boost when they get an offer from one of the 'kings' of CFB. IMO the recruiting sites have improved greatly in the past 10 years. The recruiting 'experts' staffs have multiplied in numbers plus these recruiting sites have many, many more opportunities to evaluate these kids with all the summer camps these kids attend...

Lloyd's recruiting efforts in his last few classes (2005 - 2008 ) were very underwhelming, despite being ranked rather well thanks to recruiting services giving historically strong programs bonus points for their recruits. I saw a ton of M recruits rated as 4-stars that I didn't think had a very high ceiling while other programs were signing superior athletes that had higher ceilings that were ranked as 3-stars. Even I who felt Lloyd's last several recruiting classes were quite overrated, grossly overrated them... M's had an all-time low of NFL caliber, All B10 talent since the Hart, Henne, Long, Manningham class...

The recruits Hoke brought in the '12 & '13 class are quite good, the '14 class could've used more top 150-200 type recruits but you can have a 'mediocre' class after two good ones. The recruits from '12 & '13 just aren't near as ready to play as most people expect. It takes time to develop the strength to play B10 level football, it takes time to learn to play B10 level football. M has an unprecedented amount of underclassman the past couple seasons in their 2-deep, these guys are going to be a strong group as upperclassman but it won't be quite as soon as most of us hope. Yes, 'elite'/5-star recruits can come in and can play as true freshman, those are generally the exception.

[iam416]

Good discussion, WM/Buchanan. These tiny little oases of analysis and perspective are why I enjoy reading this forum.

My general comment on WM's recruiting analysis is that trusting offers is a good tool, IMO -- the old 3* with a 5* offer sheet. I do think kids get bumped a little with good offers, but I think it's probably deserved. That said, with as many tools as these guys have to assess recruits, the offer sheet is now diminished a bit.

I also agree with the true freshmen comments, as obvious as they may be. They generally aren't able to play let alone be difference-makers.

However, I also think a staff knows what it has with a player early on. Cooper used to have some hillbilly saying to the effect that if a player is going to be a big dog it will bite as a pup. They may redshirt for depth chart reasons, but there should be buzz about them. And they should definitely start showing a bit in their 2nd year. I think of most really good players OSU has had over the past 10 years, and the vast majority showed early in their career; they weren't late bloomers.

WRT M and its roster, I'd obviously be very concerned about the OL. I'm personally not thrilled with M's edge rush talent, but Mattison can create pressure in other ways. I like their DBs and I think the interior DL and LBs are solid. The skill players are still short a WR, IMO, but basically the skill position analysis hinges on Morris. I wouldn't worry about Green--if he's committed to being a star he can get there (think of how much Carlos Hyde progressed--Green is a kid turning into a grown ass man over the next 2-3 years).

As far as where M rates in the East, I'll just say I think they will, at least, match MSU. I don't see MSU fading into oblivion nor do I see them consistently able to challenge for the title. Personally, I think M will pass MSU soon *IF* they get their OL at least upgraded to serviceable. And FFS, they should be able to do that.

[SeattleLionsFan]

I think somewhere along the line M lost the "eye of the tiger". The program has become soft and entitled. When was the last time you saw M really beat up on a team like OSU or MSU beat up on it?

[hack]

Yeah, I agree. It's ``Rye or the Kaiser'' time, for the most part. I think a clearer distinction needs to be made between ``nice guy'' and ``doesn't break the rules''. The latter is what we're aiming for. Playing ``nice'' doesn't get you wins.

[SeattleLionsFan]

Vrabel is headed to the Texans. Thoughts? That makes me happy to hear that, but I know very little about OSU.

[Pasadena Blue]

I don't care what Ohio does.
Right now we need to get our sh!t together and start fielding a competitive team again.

[Dr. Strangelove]

It's worrisome if the entire defensive staff gets purged but Fickell remains.

D-line was pretty decent the past few years. Don't think Vrabel was really the problem. Although I can't really speak to his coaching abilities. Supposedly he was a good recruiter?

[iam416]

Withers was shown the door; Vrabel was not. UFM really liked Vrabel. NFL position coaches make lots more money and he has a history with O'Brien.

[iam416]

Upside, Braxton should make it official tonight that he's returning.

[whodean]

The OHIO BULL$HIT THREAD - Exactly What It Says -

Vrabel out, Fickell remains. Heh

[The Oracle]

Upside, Braxton should make it official tonight that he's returning.

Where was he gonna go?

[UMStan White]

Woos Woow Woow!!! TWO count 'em TWO division titles inTWO YEARS!!! god if that ain't elite then what is!!!

[iam416]

Where was he gonna go?

Heh. He wanted to go. Hopefully returning will work out better for him than Dickbrain Lewan.