M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Difference between the top of the B10 (MSU, Ohio, Wisky) and the mediocre, middle (Iowa, Penn State, Michigan, Nebraska, Minnesota) isn't that dramatic. .......... I don't see a lot to differentiate the '2nd' class behind Ohio; PSU, Sparty & M.. No idea how good Rutgers, Maryland are but I think both will struggle a lot in the B10 and make up the bottom of the 'East' with Indiana.

I don't get that you sort of shrug your shoulders at assertions about how fucked up Michigan football is right now and contend that they can compete with MSU, Neb and Iowa ...... Three teams that they lost to convincingly in 2013.

The trends are unmistakeable. This coaching staff is inferior to most in the B10 if on field results and even a cursory look at progress of the M team in 2013 compared to the progress of the teams you say M will compete with.

...... I respect your judgement on a lot of things, but at this point I sense your judgement with respect to M's prospects going forward is unrealistic. There is a ton of talent on M's football team. It has been mostly squandered by a staff that appears to have no clue.

Moreover, the average talent they do have appears to have been poorly developed. Both lines are a mess and have been for two seasons. 2013 is a glaring example of offensive and defensive line ineffectiveness compared to the lines of other teams in the conference who have made decent progress throughout the season.

As well, look at the comparison between Cook and Gardner, how these two QBs
were deployed, developed and how the two offenses they ran compared in terms of effectiveness. You'd have to be an idiot to not conclude there is a huge disparity in coaching quality between M and MSU to sit back and talk like M is not headed for the third tier in the B1G.

I'd love to hear why you think M is not 2013 Purdue in 2014, will not improve any time soon and that Hoke is going to last thorough the 2014 season after a couple of OOC losses followed by an early B1G 10 collapse.

[lineygoblue]

Ask Alabama about counting your national titles before they are won.

[entropy]

the BIG also needs to stop determining their bowl line up by $$$'s and thinking long term strategy..

that includes locations to expand brand name, setting up games that don't mean a local team each year and realizing that nobody thinks of Jan 1st as the bowl day destination anymore.

I'd also suggest it is time for a bowl in Indy. Dome with lots of bars around it. It's time to have some northern bowl games

[Rob F]

In the East, the 'top' programs [Ohio, PSU, M] other than Sparty don't lose much, who loses a ton of talent. I expect Ohio to be the class of the East. I don't see a lot to differentiate the '2nd' class behind Ohio; PSU, Sparty & M.. No idea how good Rutgers, Maryland are but I think both will struggle a lot in the B10 and make up the bottom of the 'East' with Indiana.

Though I'm not about to predict good things long-term for IU Football, under Kevin Wilson they seem to be slowly-but-surely moving into the middle ranks of the B1G. If they ever discover defense and tackling, they might be a dangerous team for anyone to overlook.

Right now, they're clearly better than Purdue and Illinois, and likely better than Rutgers. I'd rank them on par this just-ended season with NU and Maryland, and really not far behind Michigan. Without looking up anything whatsoever on what they have coming back on either side of the ball and what their recruiting on defense looks like since Wilson took over, I'd say the days of U-M considering IU to be an automatic "W" might be over unless Hokeorgattison figure a lot of things out. Or get replaced.

[iam416]

Alabama has counted 3 national titles under Saban. I can live with asking them.

More importantly, Braxton is back. A big outing last night may have seen him leave. If that was the case, I can live with loss. Heh.

[Rob F]

Alabama has counted 3 national titles under Saban. I can live with asking them.

More importantly, Braxton is back. A big outing last night may have seen him leave. If that was the case, I can live with loss. Heh.

As much as I enjoyed your Bucks getting punched out last night by Clemson (take that, ghost of Woody Hayes!), if it means Braxton Miller is back it's not a good thing for Michigan. He's been more than Michigan can handle seemingly forever, and I was hoping we've seen the last of him.

[Rob F]

I was, however, looking forward to Stan returning today to give you and DSL some s*** over that Orange Bowl loss.

Maybe tomorrow...

[WM Wolverine]

If you looked closer at MSU, Iowa, Penn State, Nebraska; they all have their own issues like M does. Even Ohio has a sieve of a defense they are trying to fix and will need to convince Braxton Miller to stay... M's issues are more obvious as you are closer to the situation. I don't think there is much disagreement about M's issues though imo you overstate and overblow your case...

It all comes down to recruiting talent, developing talent and coaching and getting the most out of that talent; some programs are better at these areas than others, and some are weaker. I've said all along that Hoke will only be as good as his coordinators and coaching staff and very disappointed to see any staff changes yet. I'd argue Mattison & Borges didn't have a lot to work with this season, going back to RR's awful classes of '09 & '10 and the '11 recruiting class I'd blame more on DB than anyone else...

The offensive line was going to be awful no matter what M did, the personnel here wasn't ready for B10 football. The interior of the offensive line was lousy in '12 and the guys that played in '13 couldn't sniff playing time in '12. I don't know if they are being coached very well (I'm pretty sure they aren't with all the unblocked guys) and I'm sure the offensive play calling did very little to take into account the teams glaring weakness.
M will need to win like it did with Lloyd Carr if Hoke keeps Borges, win despite his loyalty to coordinators and coaching staff members...
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B10 just did a major revamp of it's bowl lineup, adding the Holiday, SF Bowl, Pinstripe, Armed Forces and Liberty (shared w/ Gator) Bowls in addition to having more access to the Orange...

Florida is great for bowls in that airline and hotel tickets there are always inexpensive, the California (& Arizona) Bowls carry a much heftier price tag in both airline, hotels though I prefer the match-ups with the Pac 12 rather than those with the SEC... The Texas Bowls (which the B10 dropped a couple) fit in the middle though you're likely playing a Big XII opponent, which to the B10 is probably less desirable than playing the Pac 12, SEC...

A Northern Bowl will be a tough sell for people 'vacationing', a bowl in Indianapolis is likely to be similar to the one in Detroit, the Pizza Bowl. I'd love to see Indianapolis or Detroit attempt to host one of the upcoming National Title games but it would require those tenants to put up the money to host them, which they are probably more profitable to those in warmer climates.

[WM Wolverine]

In the long-term, you might be correct Rob F about Indiana but next season, I can't see the Hoosiers as being anything but near the bottom of the 'East' w/ Maryland & Rutgers. Their QB loses pretty much their entire WR corps and pretty sure a good chunk of their OL.

[Optimus Prime]

603, 438 & 576 , if only Fickell had been doing his job instead of interviewing behind Meyer's back for the FAU gig perhaps things would have been different?

Hunting for a job on Meyer's dime and time, they had to have left Fickell on the Ft. Lauderdale airport tarmac?


DSL we need you to head out to LAX to see Fickell is aboard "Bucknut One", usually reserved for Circle of Trusters and winners!

[entropy]

anymore.. I'm not sure how many people go to bowl games for vacations. There was a lot of empty seats, even at the larger bowls.. I think people follow their teams and want things to do. If it was about vacationing, then the most important bowls would be in vacation destinations and not in LA, Dallas... they'd all be on the beach.

there are a lot of SEC bowls that are not in touristy destinations.. but close for the home teams to drive. that probably matters more with the costs of going to the game. put a Million dollar price tag on the indy bowl and conferences will want to play

And from my perspective, flights to Arz were cheaper than flights to Florida for us..

[Optimus Prime]

Carlos Hyde must have asked this whiteboard to dance?

http://twitter.com/BenAxelrod/status...457601/photo/1

http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story/...er-room-010414

[iam416]

Fickell didn't want the FAU job, unfortunately. Mrs. Fickell likes where she is. He'll need a MAC gig. However, I suspect that whoever replaces Withers, who was shown the door, will assume control of the defense.

Even Ohio has a sieve of a defense they are trying to fix and will need to convince Braxton Miller to stay

1 of 2 already in favor of good guys! The former hinges on who replaces Withers. The talent is there and only getting better. That defense, as I said, is good enough to handle the B10, by and large. But if UFM wants to win national titles, and that's the goal, he needs a strong coordinator. A good defense with they way they play offense and UFM will get his national title(s).

[Jeff Buchanan]

If you looked closer at MSU, Iowa, Penn State, Nebraska; they all have their own issues like M does. Even Ohio has a sieve of a defense they are trying to fix and will need to convince Braxton Miller to stay

I'll defer to you on analyzing teams other than M. I don't do a lot of that. I just watch the games against these opponents, see the end result, and study the UFRs at mgoblog and Brian's objective based conclusions that there is no sense in anything M is doing anymore. I'd call that a pretty compelling argument that, well, the M coaching staff does not know what it is doing.

M's issues are more obvious as you are closer to the situation. I don't think there is much disagreement about M's issues though imo you overstate and overblow your case...

First, you defend M's circumstances by allowing for this and that and then you acknowledge "M's issues." Pick a position, my friend. I'm not sure you really have one.

It all comes down to recruiting talent, developing talent and coaching and getting the most out of that talent; some programs are better at these areas than others, and some are weaker. I've said all along that Hoke will only be as good as his coordinators and coaching staff and very disappointed (not) to see any staff changes yet.

See my statement above ..... one cannot be honestly enthusiastic about M's future in Big Ten Football, let alone football on the national scene. M is not even close to either competing for the Big 10 Championship and by virtue of winning that, competing in a BCS play-off bowl. osu? Yes, because of ufm and because osu, as an institution, will do everything it can to support him in his goal. MSU is a different story. As long as Danoniao and Narduzzi stick with the program, they are going to be contenders. Their accomplishments in 2013 are a striking example of how you take average talent and produce a winner with great coaching.

I'd argue Mattison & Borges didn't have a lot to work with this season, going back to RR's awful classes of '09 & '10 and the '11 recruiting class I'd blame more on DB than anyone else...

While this may be true, can you explain to me why M struggled against Akron and UCONN, lost to a shitty PSU team to open conference play, needed a miracle to beat NfW, nearly lost to IU and predictably lost to any B10 team with a pulse including getting drilled by MSU? This is not the Michigan football teams I once knew. They are soft, poorly coached and without any identity since maybe 2006. I don't get how you can say, well, things will improve in 2014.

I don't know if they are being coached very well (I'm pretty sure they aren't with all the unblocked guys) and I'm sure the offensive play calling did very little to take into account the teams glaring weakness.

See comments above.

M will need to win like it did with Lloyd Carr if Hoke keeps Borges, win despite his loyalty to coordinators and coaching staff members...

So, what you're saying is that even though everybody wanted to be done with LC and his anachronistic style of football in 2006, we have spent 7 years trying to find something else and utterly failed in that endeavor?

Well, why yes, that is exactly what you are saying.

Sorry to be such a shit, WM. But I am done with all the happy horse shit and will take on any one who is trying to sell it.

[WM Wolverine]

I'm not happy with where M is right now and not confident about where it's headed. I do believe this is a low point and see a brighter future with Hoke's own recruits getting experienced...

Whether that future is mediocre 9-3, 8-4 type seasons with Citrus, Gator & Holiday Bowls or a future of Hoke coaching in Rose, Orange and postseason Bowls at seasons end and having 10-2 type seasons. I think '14 will be a lot more telling where Hoke has this program headed as his first recruiting class will be in their 3rd year; redshirt sophomores and true juniors.