M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

Is M football off probation this season?

[iam416]

Oh, and of course, the fact that OSU self-reported Tressel's failure to forward several e-mails, then fired him is bush league. Especially in view of a New England Patriot and Florida alumnus allegedly killing someone. Obviously, the OSU program remains out of control. Dark, dark days.

16 > 1 is small comfort. But that and continued assrapings of M will have to do. At least my rogue, out of control program is going full fucking Ghengis Khan on the B10 and has been for years. I'd hate to be an NCAA violator AND a bitch like, say, M. LOL.

[Tony G]

New found in that Michigan's BB program had shady doings stretching back into the 80's. This is far longer than the period after its final judgment, which was passed on it in 2002. Michigan fired the coach from their National Championship Team over his involvement in the scandal. The players involved were disassociated from the program till this past year. Basically a very umpleasant and unseemly mess.

To state my issue again, I am not focusing on what has happened after the wrongdoing was discovered and adjudicated. What I am stressing is that the U-M basketball program fell into disrepute much to the same degree as the OSU football program. I understand that UM has now paid for their transgressions and I am glad they did. I am ok with pointing out that OSU appears to have not found their compass yet. What I am not ok with is what appears to be an attitude that U-M has never strayed and is and always has been a pillar of virtue. Having been a fan/booster/student in such a program that went astray, the "high ground" involved here is not that high nor do you have to go back to far to find them equal.

I am not aware of any violations or wrongdoing that happened under the Woody Hayes program nor Bo Schembechler's. I would say that both schools ran clean programs, albeit OSU was led by a sometimes psychotic raving lunatic. Some kids responded well to the lunatic however.

[Jeff Buchanan]

So Michigan's new found zeal for morality gives you enough high ground to be so pious?

Yes, WTF?

You are clearly missing the point in my post.

talent and strange got it, they disagree - they're fine with osu's current direction and its past. Fine. No surprise.

One other thing. There is no such thing as a fine line between ethical and unethical behavior when leadership makes it clear what is and what isn't. There's plenty of gray area when the leadership doesn't do that.

[Tony G]

And U-m has been in the gray and the black in the not too distant past

[Jeff Buchanan]

And U-m has been in the gray and the black in the not too distant past

I would agree with that, Tony ....... with respect to the Ed Martin affair and its sullying affect on M's Athletic Department and indirectly on the U.

But not the football program. Schemebechler, by the time he reached his zenith of power and influence was a rock of integrity if the words written about him during and after his life are to be believed. I don't think there is any reason to doubt those accounts of his life and times as M's football coach and AD.

Obviously, I never directly observed his leadership style but did anyone ever question where the lines were drawn with him? Do players who played for him ever express doubts that an ass-kicking was just around the corner if a rule that he set or was responsible for enforcing was broken?

No. His was leadership of the highest order when it came to ethics. That kind of thing filters down and laterally in organizations fortunate enough to have such leaders.

As for osu, during Woody's days, I think there was a lot of integrity present in the football program. I think Cooper perpetuated that. So did Bruce. tressel? That's the rub for me. He let a lot of people down trying to cover his ass and the institution that employed him supported him in that endeavor until public outcry and the press made it impossible to continue supporting him. Then, and only then did they act decisively. And, no talent, self reporting to the NCAA, a weak institution if there ever was one, doesn't count. Smith knew exactly what he was getting himself into with that self reporting ....... Exactly nothing.

Bottom line ..... Ill take who we are and let the record stand with regard to what osu is.

[Tony G]

I agree with your summation of things up to and including tressel.

And I also agree they certainly appear to have not fully cleaned house. Urban's record is not that of someone beyond reproach.

How did the years building up to the Ed Martin scandal play in the U-M forum leading up to 2002? The times where the smoke was building and then there was an obvious fire. There's still plenty of material to hammer the buckeyes with. Being from Ohio is the most obvious. I'm just trying to bring some sense of humility to an otherwise very worthy discussion. And as always, it's just my opinion. Feel free to ignore it.

[Dr. Strangelove]

2016 Ohio State Football Schedule
Sept. 3 - Bowling Green
Sept. 10 - Tulsa
Sept. 17 - at Oklahoma
Sept. 24 - Off
Oct. 1 - Rutgers
Oct. 8 - Indiana
Oct. 15 - at Wisconsin
Oct. 22 - at Penn State
Oct. 29 - Northwestern
Nov. 5 - Nebraska
Nov. 12 - at Maryland
Nov. 19 - at Michigan State
Nov. 26 - Michigan
Dec. 3 - Big Ten Championship Game


2017 Ohio State Football Schedule
Sept. 2 - at Indiana
Sept. 9 - TBA
Sept. 16 - Oklahoma
Sept. 23 - at North Carolina
Sept. 30 - at Rutgers
Oct. 7 - Maryland
Oct. 14 - at Nebraska
Oct. 21 - Off
Oct. 28 - Penn State
Nov. 4 - at Iowa
Nov. 11 - Michigan State
Nov. 18 - Illinois
Nov. 25 - at Michigan
Dec. 3 - Big Ten Championship Game

Beginning with the Wisconsin game, the 2016 schedule is tough. The 2017 schedule...wow, different.

[hack]

Difficult to comprehend, Tony. Whatever happened at UM, when it was discovered the university reacted in a fundamentally different way than at OSU. OSU vacated its 1999 Final Four during a decade in which Tressel was doing his thing -- let's not bother pretending they were shocked to find that it happened again! Tressel came with a track record. So does Meyer. UM followed up its basketball program problems by hiring several earnest idiots and then the basketball equivalent of Mr. Rodgers, who thankfully is also a great basketball coach. OSU followed up its problems, to which you would like to draw a parallel although the nature of the violations are fundamentally different, by hiring a guy who ran a similarly loose ship in his previous job. For OSU to have Tressel back and feted in the stadium this year is emblematic. The people that broke rules at Michigan haven't been invited back and frankly would never be welcomed back universally in a literal or figurative sense. Much less applauded.

Again, I'm sympathetic to the general notion you're on to, but this example doesn't work at all. There are common-sense arguments against it like above, the measurable differences in reactions, the anecdotes about both programs that corroborate the same suspicion, etc. Michigan I'm sure has its share of rulebook encounters, but on that topic the school has a hell of a lot to be proud of in comparison. You don't have to be perfect to be admirable.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Michigan is one of the few schools that views NCAA violations as being comparable or worse than actual criminal acts.

Get arrested for sex crimes or pulled over for a DUI and you'll be forgiven. Take a $100 handshake and you will and should be shunned for life.

[iam416]

followed up its basketball program problems by hiring several earnest idiots

And have followed up its football probation with the same tact.

[Tony G]

OSU followed up its problems, to which you would like to draw a parallel although the nature of the violations are fundamentally different, by hiring a guy who ran a similarly loose ship in his previous job.

Something to consider, would RR have been canned if he had a winning record? He's had suspicions about the kind of program he runs much the same way Tressel did. If RR was going 9-2 or 10-1 (with a victory over OSU) do you think U-M would have had the integrity to say he's not taking the program where we want him to? My guess is, no.

[lineygoblue]

And have followed up its football probation with the same tact.

I hope that you and every coach on the ohio staff really believes that.

[hack]

Something to consider, would RR have been canned if he had a winning record? He's had suspicions about the kind of program he runs much the same way Tressel did. If RR was going 9-2 or 10-1 (with a victory over OSU) do you think U-M would have had the integrity to say he's not taking the program where we want him to? My guess is, no.

What suspicions? Tressel got nailed at Youngstown and at OSU. You are saying RR is equivalent to that?

[hack]

Michigan is one of the few schools that views NCAA violations as being comparable or worse than actual criminal acts.

Get arrested for sex crimes or pulled over for a DUI and you'll be forgiven. Take a $100 handshake and you will and should be shunned for life.

LOL. Yup!