M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

Actually, not by any measure. By one measure.

By any measure, 8>1, 16>1, and 26>21.

See how that works.

[WM Wolverine]

M football took a decade off, it does that every 50 years or so... It's almost back...

[lineygoblue]

Excellent work today, Talent. Like one of the 300 beating back the hordes of decadent Persians.

More like Pee Wee Herman deciding to take in a x-rated movie.

[iam416]

I give Buchanan some credit. Ordinarily he just launches into his wild speculation. This time he cleverly, for him, tried to trojan horse the bullshit in under the pretense of a "historical" discussion. That didn't last even through the initial post.

The odd thing is, is that historically, M has plenty of facts to support its case. Oh well.

M football took a decade off, it does that every 50 years or so... It's almost back...

If the measure is national titles (or coming close), as has been suggested by some for other sports, then M *is* back as they have something like 1 national title and 1 #2 finish in the past fuck knows how many decades.

If the measure is B10 titles, they're inching back. It'd be nice to see Coach No Titles win, say, a division title for M before saying they're almost back. They're getting there.

If the measure is beating Michigan State consistently, heh, still some work to do to shore that up.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I'm just curious, talent, and this is a serious question:

Given that we here have obvious biases pro M and con osu and given that the facts surrounding the tressel affair are not as strongly condemnatory as we would like them to be ......

Is it not a reasonable position, minus any bias, to assume that there was a culture around the osu football program that drew talented teenagers to it for reasons beyond great facilities, great coaches and great football.

Is it not reasonable to conclude that jim tressel, who had a record of such conduct while at Youngstown State, didn't, if not openly, then tacitly, wink and look the other way at behavior that fostered this culture which, in the end, was beneficial to the osu football program.

I think that he was caught lying to the NCAA about such actions involving several players at the end of his coaching days and that he lied a second time in order to preserve the eligibility of his star QB, terrell pryor in a bowl game suggests he was thoroughly engaged in the conduct I mention above and which you so vehemently reject the idea that he was.

I'd argue that the circumstantial evidence that there was such a culture is overwhelming. You would argue the facts don't support that ..... granted I have a motivational bias, but I believe the observational data allows one to reasonably conclude that, as far as recuriting is concerned, kids might choose osu over another school because, as MoC put it ....."I got paid more at osu than in the CFL."

In our conference/region, the creation of this sort of culture is subtle, unlike it is in the SEC. It is a way of life down there and that is not true in the BT ......except, IMV, at osu. That's why so many, including most of us here, think osu is more like an SEC school than a BT school. It has advanced its profile by acting in this way and recruited more effectively because it is an attractive program ...... but not because it recruits and plays with integrity. Quite the opposite I would argue.

I'll acknowledge that the osu athletic department administrators and coaches alike would stand strongly against accusations that inappropriate benefits or inducements to recruits intended to advantage osu's football program are not present and are fabricated by opponents and opposing fans. They may be right .....

But this sort of stuff is very difficult to pin down. A booster here a booster there, a friend of the program here and one there, all of them handing out something of value down some dark alley, is all it takes. I see this, after M's experience with Chris Weber, Martin and the Fab Five, much less likely to happen around AA than it is to happen around c-bus.

What say you?

[iam416]

Buchanan:

If you wanted to argue that Coach Tressel either "didn't care to know" or "looked the other way" when it came to star players, fine. There is enough with Ray Isaac, Clarett, Smith and TP to at least put forth that argument.

The problem is that doesn't affect on-the-field performance. That doesn't affect how good or bad OSU football is. In the case of M, Chris Webber was always going to M. Nothing suggests otherwise. Nothing suggests he was bought ala Cam Newton. What he did was break NCAA rules, completely amoral NCAA rules, while at M. Michigan gained no advantage on the court from those violations. None.

Coach Tressel and Ohio State were under a microscope from news agencies (namely ESPN) and the NCAA. The latter may be weak, but the former is the real devil. If there is dirt, they'll report it. I have yet to see a single story about Ohio State recruiting improprieties (outside of silliness involving text messages or some other nonsense). Not one story about paying for recruits.

In short, you flail all about with your "culture of cheating" shit, but you can't credibly link that to on-the-field advantage. You can't point to any facts that OSU players were induced to come to OSU through illegal benefits. All you do is gin up bullshit about how you *speculate* high school recruits knew about this "culture of cheating" and how you *speculate* they chose OSU. You can at least posit Point A, but it's an A + B + C, then D type of analysis and you have shit for B and C.

Finally, when you look at Coach Tressel's recruiting at Ohio State it is completely unexceptional for an elite program. Ohio State had a few really good classes, some borderline top 10 classes and some meh classes. The recruiting was, more or less, consistent with what Coach Cooper did, though Coach Tressel did better with Ohio kids. And now, Coach UFM is doing far better than Coach Tressel ever did.

The obvious point is that there is nothing in OSU's recruiting under Coach Tressel that was abnormal. Frankly, Coach Hoke's recruiting is more of an outlier for M than anything Coach Tressel did. But Coach Hoke's recruiting is consistent with what M should do. The obvious example to the contrary is Ole Miss.

I've dealt with this type of post gads of times. It's pointless. You can't credibly link any OSU rules violations to on-the-field performance. Frankly, I would have a better case linking M's NCAA rules violations to on-the-field performance.

It's simply a case of you being unable to handle Ohio State's success.

I'm more than happy to discuss historical performances. As a CFB fan, I really enjoy those types of fact-based discussions. I had a similar discussion with Hack about B10 basketball which was, by message board standards, completely enjoyable. Not once, incidentally, did I discount M's Fab 5 results or any other results around that time. I count those FF appearances because I saw them with my own two eyes and they would have happened whether Webber was paid or not. And anything to the contrary just isn't factual.

Winning Percentage.
Conference titles.
Head-to-head.
Bowl games.
Poll Finishes.
National Titles.
Etc.

Those are facts. I mean don't you want to take issue with that stupid CFB Warehouse system because of its bowl component and because it doesn't take into account that B10 nixed bowls for two decades then had the 1 team only rule until 1975? Don't you want to know how they figure out the SoS component, which is significant? Don't you want to take issue with them counting AP/UPI national titles as 50 and all others as 15 (effectively considering pre-1936 success as less valuable -- something a M should take issue with)?

No. It's all about Tressel and a completely unsupported link to on-the-field accomplishments. As I said, very dull.

[Optimus Prime]

Talent, there's nothing wrong with second fiddle just as your therapist has said countless times.

Shake 'n Bake!

[hack]

It rhymes; they're both verbs. It's awesome!

[Optimus Prime]

Cal: "You know, I was thinking, though, one time, uh, it would be really awesome if, like, you could slingshot me in for a win."

Ricky: "Yeah, but-- Okay, but, if you won, how, how am I gonna win?"

Cal: "Yeah."

Ricky: "Think about it."

Cal: "No, I was thinking about..."

Ricky: "I mean, it's not like you're finishing 18th."

Cal: "Nothing wrong with silver."

Ricky: "Nothing wrong with silver at all."

Cal: "I'm just kidding you, man. I don't wanna win. I'll just bury it down inside."

Ricky: "Bury it deep down in there, and never bring it up again."

Cal: "It's painful, and I love you!"

[Jeff Buchanan]

........

No. It's all about Tressel and a completely unsupported link to on-the-field accomplishments......

My Hypotheses:

(1) It is reasonable to assume that there was a culture around the osu football program that drew talented teenagers to it for reasons beyond great facilities, great coaches and great football.

(2) It is reasonable to conclude that jim tressel, who had a record of such conduct while at Youngstown State, didn't, if not openly, then tacitly, wink and look the other way at behavior that fostered this culture which, in the end, was beneficial to the osu football program.

I think your arguments against both of these hypotheses are good ones.

I just wanted to hear what you had to say about them.

Carry on.

Cheaters, heh, heh.

[iam416]

LOL @ Ricky Bobby

Buchanan:

IMO, hypotheses are stand-alone conversations. Discussions of historical significance are fact-based.

[WM Wolverine]

The issue is a competitive balance one, when you go a recruiting visit to say OSU and see their star QB or RB driving around in a new vehicle, that leads to recruits wanting to play there because they see they get extra benefits. Regardless the 'value' of those extra benefits, whether they are car, shoes, clothes or tattoos. They are extra value at some places in the SEC compared to others who don't give those extra benefits...

Yes, I know it's very rarely the actual university themselves. It's often times people who own a Foot Locker franchise or a car dealership that is a big fan that of a school that doesn't see any harm in giving free stuff away...

Everything being equal, you get free clothes, shoes, & tattoos at LSU but at Iowa or Illinois, they play everything by the book; which university would you attend if you're a 4-star recruit? Cultures are entirely different in the southeast compared to the midwest.

[iam416]

No. Recruiting is relationships or, in some cases, being bought.

Peppers is going to M because he feels comfortable with the staff. Joey Bosa is going to OSU because he loves UFM and the staff.

That's what recruiting is, and you should know better. No recruit is going to pick a school based on the car the QB drives. I guess you couched it as "everything being equal" -- which is fantasy because things are never equal. A recruit always prefers a staff and that's who he will sign with absent the outright high priced auction shit.

[WM Wolverine]

Why did Cam Newton transfer to Auburn over other options?

[The Oracle]

High priced auction shit.