M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

I'm still really not getting M can't compete at the elite level.

At bottom, it's talent + coaching. M can recruit with anyone. The talent Hoke is bringing in is not significantly different from Alabama's and is better than most in the SEC.

Now, whether M is committed to putting the very best coaches in place, from HC down the line, I dunno. But let me put it his way -- if Harbaugh was M, he would have them at the elite level in 4 years. He can recruit. He can coach.

I fully expect UFM to have OSU at that level.

And finally, let's keep sight of this. It's not necessarily the SEC -- it's Alabama. That's a goddamn war machine. Georgia, South Carolina, LSU, Florida -- those guys are behind Alabama. Shit, Saban had 5 weeks to prepare for LSU and assraped them by 3 TDs. What's more, Alabama was beat by a B12 team this year. The SEC shat on A&M all year -- you'll never be able to come in compete; you'll never be able to win the SEC -- and a B12 team came in and nearly won the SEC and, in the process, beat Alabama in Tuscaloosa.

Saban is a great coach and Alabama is running at a remarkably high level, but they can be got. And the other "elite" in the SEC an easily be got.

[WM Wolverine]

B10 wanting the 'east coast' from the ACC is/was a major motivation factor in expansion. I'm guessing Delaney has his eyes on the populous and fast growing mid Atlantic (Virginia, North Carolina) next.

Delaney wants what is best for the B10 and if one of those things causes the death of the ACC as a major conference, that's just collateral damage.

[hack]

Points well taken from Talent save for that Harbaugh business. There's a chance he might not have been willing to retire in Ann Arbor, and we just can't take the risk of that kind of humiliation. Plus he said some mean things once about the school.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I'm still really not getting M can't compete at the elite level

Did you see the Alabama game? Nebraska in Lincoln?

There are two problems. (1) I like Brady Hoke but he's not going to be a difference maker. His team 133 lost every big game they played in 2013 most of which they should have easily won for not a bunch of boneheaded errors by the coaches. I don't expect that to change despite arguments to the contrary regarding getting his guys on the field. (2) Recruiting. Yes, I think there are some fine players in Hoke's recruiting classes. But, I've not seen a single difference maker come to M yet . Could he build one? There's a possibility but I think you've hit the nail on the head with respect to position coaches. Just a hunch but guys with serious intentions to and the ability to play in the NFL, are looking elsewhere it appears.

[hack]

As long at Mattison's here there's a puncher's chance. Disappointing that Borges is still here. Switching OCs would have been a good indicator of a commitment to excellence. I still think Michigan can turn in a legendary defense in the next decade and ride that plus a few lucky bounces in the course of the season to an undefeated season and a championship. But I think there'll be one or two too many 9-3 seasons to go along with that.

[Mike]

There's gonna be a lot of 9-3 seasons.

[hack]

All the horseshoes were used up in 2011. Which, well, fine. It was a fun year and a deserving group of players.

[Chuck Mallory]

I would be fine with a 9-3 finish a lot of years. Depends on the expectations. It would not make sense to fire the OC before he even has his players in place. Why can't you get that through your analytical head? Fire the OC and see what happens to the offensive players that are committed to this class right now.

[Chuck Mallory]

Switching OC's would of been a good indicator of extreme desperation.

[iam416]

Buchanan:

I saw most M games this year, including the two you mentioned.

Let's keep in sight the forest: talent + coaching. This year's M team, in no way, had elite talent. No amount of coaching was going to change that fact. And, *SPOILER ALERT* -- next year's M won't have elite talent either. BUT, I think Hoke is recruiting at a very high level and bringing in the type of talent that, if coached well, puts you in the elite conversation.

I also necessarily disagree with your assessment of Hoke's recruiting. Alabama's trademark has been an OL and DL that dominates both sides of the ball. Hoke is certainly bringing OL that are doing to do that. I'm not sure if they have anyone as talented as Kouandjio, who was a stud in HS and started for Bama day 1. But they have gads of very good prospects which should give them the depth at OL to really make a difference. They're also bringing in an very good QB. And a host of others.

Yes, they haven't landed a difference-maker WR. But that's the only flaw in otherwise really strong recruiting run for Hoke.

So, the talent part of the equation is there. I'll defer to you on the coaching part. Personally, I think Hoke and his staff are, on the whole, pretty good. They're not Saban and Alabama (as much as Liney will disagree) and, IMO, they're not UFM and OSU. But can they match the likes of Richt? Muschamp? Spurrier? Even Miles? Absolutely, IMO.

Anyway, as much as detest M and as much as I enjoyed watching M swallow a shotgun and hire RichGOD, and as much as I enjoy point out the dearth of MNCs over the past 60 years, I'm not going to sit around a pretend that M has a glass ceiling that prevents it from being elite. I just don't believe that's the case. As I said, if Harbaugh had come, there's no question in my mind he would have won huge. Conversely, if UFM had NOT come, there's very little doubt in my mind that OSU would be considerably worse off.

Fundamentally, and I hate repeating this, but fundamentally it's talent + coaching. And I'll state it from OSU's perspective -- Ohio State can damn well get as much or nearly as much talent as any other program. It's Ohio freaking State. And with the right coach and staff, that means they absolutely 100% should be elite. And I don't understand why M fans don't think the exact same thing about M.

[entropy]

Totally agree.

yep. I think JD is looking at money as an equalizer in the long run.

[entropy]

M can compete for the NC... so can UNL... but it is going to be done the way UNL has competed in the past.

You have lots of 9-10 win seasons and then occassionaly, you get the right mix of difference makers on both sides of the ball that propel you to the NC game. that is what UNL did, even ignoring the 90's run.


and btw.. I'm already tired of bama fans and espn talking about this is the best dynasty ever, because UNL shared a championship. Sorry.. 70-3 has not been matched. Bama lost to a freshman QB at home. you're not that dynasty... so kindly fuck off.

[hack]

Great points. I think, in the end, talent and coaching don't come from out of nowhere. You pay for coaching, and Jeff has pointed out that Michigan may not be willing to pony up.

I myself would like to add to your two ingredients having a clear goal. Talent + coaching + organisational clarity.

As Jeff points out, OSU has a clear goal and there is no ambivalence. And it's willing to take whatever path. There's no talk of OSU Men (well obviously) or whether Meyer has to retire in Columbus or whether the spread is right for the Big Ten or whether he fits with the culture or any of that bullshit. OSU will take the clearest path to victory like river to ocean. Michigan, thanks to all of its overlapping and conflicting objectives regarding its football team, lacks the clarity and therefore when facing an uphill climb becomes a puddle of stagnant water . A guy like Harbaugh could come in and allay fears and push all that stupid shit away because he's a genius, but Michigan lacked the clarity and drive to hire him and save themselves from their own muddle-headed confusion about what it takes to win football games. Too many people involve won't eat crow or have their feathers ruffled or consider that there's more than one way to do it.

[iam416]

Points well taken from Talent save for that Harbaugh business. There's a chance he might not have been willing to retire in Ann Arbor, and we just can't take the risk of that kind of humiliation. Plus he said some mean things once about the school.

Heh. I'm thankful the 49ers job conveniently opened up at the same time the M job did.

Meanwhile, UFM was conveniently available for Ohio State.

Better to be lucky than good when it comes to coaching searches!

Of course, hmmmmmm.....is it possible OSU orchestrated the entire thing? OSU knew about the tattoos at the end of November and early December. They reach out to UFM and tell him a job may be opening. He announces his retirement on December 8th. OSU, after combing through its e-mails, finds something to bury Tressel with and self-reports knowing that UFM is waiting in the wings. A clever dog and pony show with Gee, Geno and Tress outrages the public, building the tsunami against OSU and enabling OSU to fire Tressel. After waiting an appropiate amount of time, UFM is hired. Brilliant! Shrewd, ingenious long-term thinking trumps short-term narrowmindedness!

Of course, that would mean Geno's keystone cop persona is just an act, and I can't buy that. So, I'll stick with LUCKY!!!

[entropy]

hack... there is a lot more to winning the NC than just coaching and talent.

bama needed both KSU and Oregon to get upset to be in the game.. that is luck. you do need some luck sometimes...

I'd also say injuries are key and team chemistry. you need strong team leaders to keep the culture healthy. Lots of talented teams have failed because of team chemistry.