M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[hack]

Well what Michigan let Carr do is certainly to its shame, but I really mean it when I say that's Bo's legacy -- again, each in their own way RR and LC did a lot to shit on it, but thanks to what Bo built the program is recovering awfully quickly. He may have stunk in bowl games and whatnot, but you can draw a direct line from him to 11-2 in 2011 and with a wonderfully bright future under Hokattison.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Jeff- Neither Moeller or Tressel was "officially" fired but I think we can both agree it was "resign or be fired"...correct?

Like I said, I'm not as familiar with Bump Elliott, but I think it was a similar situation with him.

[UMStan White]

"It's funny how these two clowns obsess over an "irrelevant" program 24/7."

Amen! These two bozos waste more bandwidth than any two morons on the web. I can't imagine what it must be like to obsess the way they do over a rival, desperately trying to justify a pathetic existence in the face of your greatest rival. don't you asswipes have somewhere to go?

[lineygoblue]

Bring in objective people, ask them who had the better career, they will say Woody. Admit it, move on.

Ok, lets go down this road.

Who had the better career?

Woody or Joe Paterno?

Joe Paterno or Bo Schembechler?

[iam416]

Paterno > Woody > Bo, Ron Zook, Brett Bielema, Dave Wannstadt, etc.

I also don't think, e.g., that Beilein has had a better career than Bobby Knight. I also think the world of John Wooden as a coach even though his championships were possibly (some would say certainly) bought by Sam Gilbert.

I also have a tremendous amount of respect for Bo. Woody did. Woody loved the man. And more to the point, I like the old school screamers/hard ass coaches. I'm not offended by that style. I never minded playing for them. I only cared if they knew what they were doing. My father hated them. Hated Bo, Woody and Knight. I remember watching Michigan lose to Illinois in 1983 and Bo was in the midst of a tantrum, and my dad just chuckled -- he thought players who played afraid would always choke. I disagreed then and even moreso now, but that's neither here nor there.

When I asssess a coach or player in terms of "all-time" status, I tend to focus on objective performance-based facts. Bear Bryant may have been total drunk and mean SOB, but that doesn't really factor into my calculus (#1, btw, for CFB, IMO). The Nick may be a soul-less, baby-seal clubbing, puppy-hating MFers, but goddamn he can build and coach a team.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that take. It just lacks depth.

The value of man's life time contribution has to take into account many things that aren't easily objectified. On paper (and here) its easier to support an argument with objective facts than it is to say one had character and integrity and one didn't.

By the same token, I don't think those kinds of assessments can be ignored. I think having Linesman bring the Paterno question up makes that crystal clear.

[Hannibal]

I never liked the screamer types. The whole concept of getting into players' faces and yelling at them is predicated on the idea that they are lazy or apathetic, or that they need motivation. If that's the case, then it tends to work. If that's not the case, then it backfires. Maybe it tends to work in college football, where everyone comes in with an ego. Every single coach who ever taught me something and made me better was a good teacher first. On the flipside, I had a lot of coaches who gave us a tough guy speech on the first day of practice about how they weren't going to tolerate bad attitudes or laziness. By the time that I was a teenager, I tuned that crap out immediately.

The one unifying factor that I noticed for every good coach was the ability to teach fundamentals and correct little technique errors that were invisible to most everyone else. The screamers never did this.

[hack]

Talent is an Oihoan. Depth is out of the question.

That said, the question here is starting to get very expansive. Where do you cut it off? Do they start getting points knocked off for speeding tickets?

[Jeff Buchanan]

That's a problem. In organizations though, deciding who rises and who steps to the side, the leadership definitely includes questions of character and integrity in the real time calculus.

That's tough to do in hypothetical arguments about who's the better CFB head coach looking retrospectively.

But fergod's sake this is an M forum. Osu fans who dare to tread here better be prepared to get hammered regardless of the facts.

[iam416]

Every single coach who ever taught me something and made me better was a good teacher first

Exactly. My favorite coach was a hard-ass, but man, he could coach. Baseball. We'd practice outside on tennis courts in March, typically wet with piles of snow still not melted off, and he'd screaming grounders to us making us field it the right way or die trying. We so overachieved that year because we were so fundamentally sound. My least favorite coach was a hoops coach who fancied himself Bob Knight but couldn't outcoach Phil Knight.

Bottom line, for me in dealing with a coach, is that excellence and fairness bought tons of tolerance.

[Optimus Prime]

My favorite coach allowed us to shotgun a few "cold ones" during brief respite.

Hell, he'd even "buy" for most of the underage teammates.

We used the empties as pylons for skating drills, even the old stubbies.

[lineygoblue]

As much as I enjoyed the Bo/Woody wars, as I've grown older, I have realized that "screamers" for the most part, do so because of their shortcomings as a coach. Bo and Woody's records speak for themselves, but just because a coach "gets after" the officials, doesn't mean he's a good coach. The best coaches I have come in contact with in my 18 years as an official, are the guys who will walk up to you during a break in the action, and very quietly tell you what they think you did wrong, .. and then they walk away. Those are the guys who end up playing for conference and state championships.

I worked a scrimmage two weeks ago, where I got a chance to speak to the HC of the Division 2 runner up last year. (look it up if you want to know who it is) This guy has multiple state championships. This guy was one of the most soft spoken coaches I've ever met. During the entire scrimmage, he never raised his voice once. He always got his players around him and dealt with them in the huddle. No screaming, he didn't allow his assistants to yell either. Again, he has multiple state championships.

I like that approach more than the screamers.

[hack]

Screaming is one way, and there are others. But, as noted, what's not optional is being a good and competent teacher.

[iam416]

All in all, I'd probably prefer a non-screamer. That's how I'd do it. I think probably the best coaches can read kids and respond accordingly -- some kids need the screaming while others need the soft-hand teaching.

[hack]

Nah. You'd scream half the time, and then suddenly and without warning guilt-trip all the people around you who scream back and claim that you just want to communicate effectively and without hubris. And, a little later, you'd start screaming again. I wouldn't be surprised if it worked out fine for you.