M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[hack]

Thanks. So as to remain a productive human today I will leave it for later this eve...

[whodean]

They won a championship and made the Elite 8. Do you think that Michigan has ever one a championship or made the Elite 8? If only there was a way to find out...

I checked the record books...there seems to be some years missing though.

[hack]

I bet you did!

[whodean]

Saying Magic and Izzo are the only reasons for MSU's rise to basketball elite, you would be discounting Izzo's true impact. He has grown and cultivated the program (look at their facilities).

MSU has a bright basketball future, and its not like it will immediately go away if he were to leave. Hopefully Michigan's basketball program is on par, but it seems like you are discounting Sparty too freely.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Lots of tidbits here.

Tidbit one ..... what this thread is for. I think that's pretty well established and Linesman reaffirmed it. No, talent, we're not going to close the thread on your suggeston to do so.

Interesting find: talent is the number one poster on this forum followed by Linesman and strange in that order. Despite the intonations by our buckeye stalwarts about how moronic Michigan men are, they must like it here. Birds of a feather and all of that.

The Hoke hire ..... I liked it out of the box. I didn't want Harbaugh or Miles for various reasons none of them having to with sour grapes. My point in lauding the brilliance of that hire has more to do with hidden value. As others have pointed out, he was the right hire at the right time. He's not a star but as a coach and as a human being he brings a pretty good resume. I guess its a matter of selecting measures to evaluate a man. W/L record, conference championships and national titles is one way but not my way. Michigan football isn't about winning at all costs.

Here's an interesting question. What are the top 5 measures of a good CFB coach? Seems like there is a wide range of views expressed here. Frankly, winning is not very high on my list and I'm admittedly an odd ball here. Many times I've expressed the view that I'd rather Michigan be 6 and 6 and graduate football players that are also good citizens that are going to contribute. I wouldn't mind if M joined the Ivy League, played football at noon every Saturday including the final regular season game agasint osu, and didn't play in the post season (esp. the way its heading) ...... basically I'd like to bring M football back to the 60s.

Obviously, none of what I'd like to see is going to happen and it is a totally unrealistic view but that's how I feel about CFB. I hate what has happened to CFB in general and what universities have done to leach off the money that can be made by playing it on the national level. Yes, that money funds other sports but, IMO, the draw at Michigan for HS students should be it's academics not that it plays waterpolo at a national level and the team trains in a 500 million dollar nautitorium.

Anyway, my measure of a good CFB coach is going to be a lot different than most here. As I reflect back on a lifetime of Michigan football that spans more than a 1/2 century, Bump and Bo, Mo and Lloyd all look like pretty damn good coaches more for what they did to advance the foundational principals of M football and less for their W/L records.

[entropy]

for the record, I was the biggest pro-hoke guy on this board. and you're welcome.

[hack]

The Hoke hire ..... I liked it out of the box. I didn't want Harbaugh or Miles for various reasons none of them having to with sour grapes. My point in lauding the brilliance of that hire has more to do with hidden value. As others have pointed out, he was the right hire at the right time. He's not a star but as a coach and as a human being he brings a pretty good resume. I guess its a matter of selecting measures to evaluate a man. W/L record, conference championships and national titles is one way but not my way. Michigan football isn't about winning at all costs.


On what did you base that decision, apart from the obvious loyalty aspect? In retrospect, all those folks singing his praises had had the benefit of seeing him in person, and given that access, maybe his obvious leadership qualities were apparent. He's very clearly a great leader. But how would any of us know? To me, at that time, he had cred as a turnaround artist but anything said by some very factionalized alumni IMO had to be viewed through the prism of the schism. (heh)


I wouldn't mind if M joined the Ivy League, played football at noon every Saturday including the final regular season game agasint osu, and didn't play in the post season (esp. the way its heading)

No offense Jeff but I don't believe you for a second. Your in-season attention to analyses and detail are both remarkably skillfull but also evidence that the above is a sentiment and only a sentiment. CFB may have veered off toward a destination that makes you and me and others very uncomfortable, but you're still along for the ride and so are many others of similar mind.

Bump and Bo, Mo and Lloyd all look like pretty damn good coaches more for what they did to advance the foundational principals of M football and less for their W/L records.

I hate to keep going round about this and wish I could just let it go, but my own personal feelings and approach to the concept of justice mandates that I say the following: one simply cannot say that about the last name on your list. His is a very complex record and a mixed legacy in the department you are referring to, with some high highs and low lows. It is a disservice to those with uncomplicated legacies to have him in the same category.

[Jeff Buchanan]

On what did you base that decision?

My intense wish to end the Rodriguez experiment coupled with an early view that Hoke had the right stuff. Just a feeling about him mostly from watching his behavior in front of the camera in the immediate aftermath of Brandon's announcement.

You bring up a good point about "not believing me for a second." Maybe its the off-season. I don't know but I have a different feeling about M football in the great scheme of things right now. Can't put a finger on it but it has to do with my disdain for what CFB is becoming. Too much entertainment with the wrong people benefiting from the value of it, no matter how misplaced that value may be.

On Lloyd ...... I do understand where you are coming from. However, in the end, whether you subscribe to the view that he was underming Rodriguez or you don't, LC was right about Rich Rodriguez if I understand what his true thoughts about him were. I don't think he liked him as a man or as a coach.

A lesson I learned as a Marine was the truth of the addage: give a (stupid, arrogant, ambitious, lazy .... name your adjective) man enough rope and he'll hang himself. You don't have to build the scaffold, rig the noose or pull the handle. These kinds of peole will fail on their own. I think LC played his cards just right. He laid low, IMO, waiting for Rodriguez to fail, like he knew he would, and he did without a lot of help from his known adversaries.

[Mackenzie]

Frankly, winning is not very high on my list and I'm admittedly an odd ball here. Many times I've expressed the view that I'd rather Michigan be 6 and 6 and graduate football players that are also good citizens that are going to contribute. I wouldn't mind if M joined the Ivy League, played football at noon every Saturday including the final regular season game agasint osu, and didn't play in the post season (esp. the way its heading) ...... basically I'd like to bring M football back to the 60s.

Jeff, I honestly feel the same way although with each passing day I remember less and less of the 60's. To me it seems that Saturday's are becoming less and less about an intercollegiate competition and more and more about the hype and garish theatre.

[hack]

That is the exact opposite of what he did, though. Instead of letting RR hang himself, he sabotaged the program. It doesn't matter if he was right or not. If he wasn't a hypocrite, he would have conducted himself according to the values he supposedly instilled in kids, instead of considering himself above the rules and granting himself license to act like a traitor and a sneak.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Jeff, I honestly feel the same way although with each passing day I remember less and less of the 60's. To me it seems that Saturday's are becoming less and less about an intercollegiate competition and more and more about the hype and garish theatre.

Spot on.

[Jeff Buchanan]

That is the exact opposite of what he did, though. Instead of letting RR hang himself, he sabotaged the program. It doesn't matter if he was right or not. If he wasn't a hypocrite, he would have conducted himself according to the values he supposedly instilled in kids, instead of considering himself above the rules and granting himself license to act like a traitor and a sneak.

I don't see it like you do.

I may have a biased view of his actions post the RR hire because I really admired LC. Maybe I'm guilty of selective interpretation of actual events. But I don't think he acted in any overt way to undermine Rodriguez. Action by inaction? Yes. Behind closed dooors? Maybe but we dont know that for a fact, do we?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Missed a good bball history discussion. Don't have much to add other than Purdue, Indiana, and OSU are pretty much the top 3 in some order.

I think if you asked most people around the country if the Big10 had an alltime dominant team, many would say Indiana. National titles grab people's attention. But the reality is they're only 3rd in Big10 titles. And I think they've only won one title (shared) in the past 20 years.

Michigan could be fairly ranked anywhere from #4 to #6. Higher than that and I think you've got a hard case to make.

[hack]

I plan on gearing that up again this evening when I can take a good look at those numbers Talent provided.

[Dr. Strangelove]

If Talent didn't provide this link, it's a good one to bookmark as well

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/