M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

Talent, I'll follow up on Heureman and Smith on the ND thread.

No problem, Clash, though I doubt there's much to follow up on. The former is rock solid for ND and the latter is, I think, a big lean. I'll let you know if I hear anything different on Smith.

[WM Wolverine]

Hoke having a really close friend in Greg Mattison able to turn around RR's abysmal defenses were a huge help as was Hoke connecting with the HS coaches in MI, Ohio and the midwest.

[iam416]

Mattison is the difference-maker both on the field and in recruiting. Hoke's pre-M career is thoroughly mediocre, if that, as was pointed out by legions of M fans at the time of the hire.

[Dr. Strangelove]

...the brilliance of the Hoke hire was confirmed by the outright rejection and ridiculous backlash of Michigan men...that you all actually believe your blatant reversal in hindsight on this forum could be a case-study in homer psyche...


Talent, I'll follow up on Heureman and Smith on the ND thread.

LOL...how true. MgoBlog was especially amusing in its denunciation of the hire. After one season, a complete reversal; Hoke just may be the finest coach in the game today. It's a given that he's got the very best DC.

Just ask Liney and he'll explain how there's basically no difference between Hoke and Saban.

The same hilarious overreaction occurred with Beinlin and the bball program around late January. This place was awash with "objective" analysis declaring that Michigan has resumed a permanent place at the top of the Big10, Izzo's program was in disarray, and that UM had reclaimed the state. Then they got bounced by Ohio (the green version) and well...some of the luster came off.

[lineygoblue]

I hereby put my hand up as one who did not like the Hoke hire. Absolutely guilty as charged. I felt it was a MAC hire for a B1G school.

However, as the man took charge of his job, hired very competent coaches, and started working with the players, it became obvious that it was a very good hire. As I watched the man's demeanor on the sidelines, I became more and more ashamed that I opposed his hire. Brady Hoke is a class act. He doesn't come with all the rump-kissing that the sports media love to lavish on Urban Meyer and Nick Saban, but Hoke is proving to be the right man at the right time for the Michigan job. I'm glad that I was wrong about him. And I'm glad to see that you bucknut fans continue to underestimate him. Please continue to do so.

I'll second what Jeff said. On a Michigan board, OlieO fans are going to get ripped on. I'd expect the same treatment if I were to go over to "bucknuts", and try to bring "a semblance of order" over there. Its just the nature of the rivalry.

This thread isn't going anywhere. We'll continue to sass OlieO every time an opportunity presents itself. That will be true whether there are OlieO fans here or not. I'm sure bucknut boards bash us real well without Michigan fans present.

Carry on ...

[lineygoblue]

Just ask Liney and he'll explain how there's basically no difference between Hoke and Saban.

And I still defy you to show me what it is about Nick Saban's coaching style that sets him apart from every other coach in America. My point has always been that the difference is he has an exclusive area of the country to recruit from, and is able to draw the best talent because of the job he has. He runs pretty much a basic pro style offense, and a basic 4-3 defense. What is so freaking special about that? ... one more time .... what is it about his coaching ability, that sets him apart from everyone else? Please explain.

And, John Beilein has indeed turned Michigan's basketball program around from where it was about 10 years ago. I do believe that Michigan will reside in the top half of the conference in basketball from now on, because of Coach Beilein. Izzo's program is not in disarray, but he's no longer "the" coach to play for in the B1G. Even your own coach has recruited better than Izzo lately. Tom Crean at Indiana has put together one of the top classes in the country, as has Coach Beilein. Michigan may not have "reclaimed the state" in recruiting, but they're no longer taking a second seat to Izzo. Beilein is getting excellent reviews from in-state coaches, and that hasn't happened for a long time.

So again ... you're wrong. Don't you ever get tired of it?

[Dr. Strangelove]

You say that the media kiss up to Saban and Meyer, but Urban gets bashed pretty good for how he left Florida (fairly or unfairly). And Saban got bashed plenty for when he lied about leaving Miami, for his abrasiveness, and for his supposedly cutthroat recruiting. You really hear nothing but praise from all quarters for these two? I can scrape up some critical articles right now if you want. Hell, there's probably been dozens of critical articles about Urban posted in this forum the past 3 months alone.

Now try and find me articles that blast Brady Hoke, since you say he doesn't benefit from any media butt-kissing.

[whodean]

liney, you are just misguided in your opinion on Saban.

I liked the Hoke hire...because he was the epitome of a "Michigan Man", and I thought that was what was needed after the RR fiasco...I preferred Harbaugh but still like the hire (didn't want Miles at all).

[Dr. Strangelove]

Liney keeps saying that because Saban runs a traditional 4-3 there's nothing special about the guy. Anyone can do what he does. Any mediocre coach can step foot in the door at Alabama and win national titles. It's not remotely true.

Neither Woody nor Bo gave the game any sort of major offensive of defensive innovation...so what's the big deal about either one of them? Mike Martz, by all accounts, is an offensive genius. Unfortunately, he's also a lousy head coach.

[iam416]

if urban spits in the wrong direction....the shit will fly

the rump-kissing that the sports media love to lavish on Urban Meyer

LOL. This thread.

As for hoops, IU is the premier name program in the B10 and Crean should keep them at the top. I'd expect Izzo to be there followed by Matta. Michigan probably fits into a 4th-6th area, which is what they are historically (well, 5th, at best, in the league). Beilein has, at least, restored them to their historical norm, which is toward the upper end of the middle tier.

The upside with hoops is that it has tons of year-to-year variance, and no B10 program is dominant enough to be top-shelf every year. Personally, I think IU will be probably be closest to that in the coming years, supplanting MSU over the past 10 years and Ohio State over the past 5 years. Meh. In any event, the league is getting really strong. I think Groce probably ends up doing a pretty good job at Illinois, which means they'll contend, too. And, of course, Painter at Purdue does a great job.

[WM Wolverine]

Saban is the best defensive coach in the nation (maybe by a good margin) and has available to him the best talent in the nation. Alabama, Georgia and Florida have amazing levels of talent; plenty of talent to supply 5 or more top 10-12 programs...

Saban's defenders are nearly always NFL ready after 4 years, they are the best coached I've seen. Saban is the best there is in CFB. Feel free to compare Hoke favorably to any other coach in CFB but please don't try to compare him to Saban, certainly not yet...

JB and Beilein are right there with the top 3 of MSU, IU and Ohio; at least going forward. All are top 10-12 programs though it might be difficult to have more than 1 of MSU & M in the 'elite' at once. MSU is in good shape but I like M's incoming talent better. Concur with Groce, I think he'll eventually have the Illini ahead of Wisky giving the B10 a really strong top 6.

[WM Wolverine]

FWIW I didn't think M's '11-'12 basketball team was very talented, its best talent is very young and its incoming class is M's best in a long time.

[iam416]

It's a gauntlet. You need to string together classes if you want to be elite, and that's hard. Painter had a monster class with Moore, Johnson and Hummel, and was able to get two really good, unlucky teams out of it. But last year, without the talent, he couldn't realistically challenge, though he did a great job. I think you'll see a lot of that kind of cycling. Like I said, I think Indiana will probably minimize the down cycle best.

[SeattleLionsFan]

Actual coaching of players in the college game is wildly underrated. Look at Tressel and Dantonio, both are terrible coaches that just get lucky and have good teams.

Nonsense. They teach the guys to play te game. And thats what Saban does. (and cheats to get extra bodies to teach, in case of flameouts or injuries.)

[Pasadena Blue]

I hate Satan about as passionately as anyone here, but he is without question the best coach in CFB bar none. What he does better than anyone else is recruit the best talent , develop them to their full potential, and implement a conservative (Tressel-like) gameplan which is never a bad strategy when you clearly have the better team.

When Hoke successfully makes Meyer quit claiming he has health problems, then I will be willing to put him in Satan's class. Until then, I am in the camp of most everyone who say its ridiculous to suggest.