M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[Rocky Bleier]

"I strongly dispute that statement, but it's of no consequence to anything."

Michigan fans were not surprised that Tressel wasn't as he appeared, but then we were watching more closely than people across the country. We always felt that the abundance of smoke was indicating fire.

[Jamie H]

Meyer was very sick. He had a stress-related condition that caused him to have episodes that essentially played out like heart-attacks, however they weren't actually heart attacks. I think they may have been stomach related. But apparently these attacks were horrible and landed him in the hospital multiple times.

If he hasn't fixed this problem, he isn't going to coach again. His doctors told him he had to walk away. Unless his health has drastically changed (which is possible) he is not going to come back.

As for him and Florida talent, Meyer has won every place he's gone and I don't think he had any specific ties to Florida before he went there. To assume he was only successful at Florida because of Florida talent is short-sighted IMO. If he's healthy, he will win anywhere he goes, but that is a big if.

[Optimus Prime]

Meyer is young enough to over come this....but you do not invest everything in elevating U of F to one of the most successful powerhouses in the nation, merely to walk away. Meyer it appears, had to for medical reasons, no choice. Heading to OSU to rescue the soon to be humiliated program is wishful thinking at this point....Let's she how badly Fickell can flounder first.

[Mackenzie]

At a minimum, I'm sure he's been told that OSU will re-evaluatee the HC position in December (a fact made obvious by his 1-year contract).

Wonder if they'll do it in writing?

[Rocky Bleier]

As for him and Florida talent, Meyer has won every place he's gone and I don't think he had any specific ties to Florida before he went there. To assume he was only successful at Florida because of Florida talent is short-sighted IMO. If he's healthy, he will win anywhere he goes, but that is a big if.

I said he would put together a good team if he went to Columbus. My point was that he wouldn't be nearly as fearful without the Florida talent, which, in my mind, is better than in Ohio. Nick Satan at State wasn't as succesful as Nick Satan at Alabama.

[lineygoblue]

Well, they could hire Steve Bellesario as the next HC at ohio and still get a very good recruiting class by default, .. made up of good players from ohio. That's just how it is there. Players from that state are going to go to ohio no matter what. The state of ohio has something like 700 high schools. That's a lot of schools to pull from.

Meyer probably benefited from the same thing in Florida. Some kids just prefer to stay close to home to play. Les Miles gets the same deal in Lousy-anna. Nick Saban gets the same in Alabama and Mack Brown gets the same deal in Texas.

Just sayin' ... some coaches get good players without having to work real hard.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Alabama is also a different level of program than MSU. Just sayin. Meyer's been a proven winner in the exact same two conferences that Hoke's experience has been in, plus two national titles at Florida. Meyer turned around a crap program at BG in one season. And had a 22-2 record at Utah, winning a BCS bowl.

Ohio talent might not quite be Florida talent but it doesn't need to be to win the Big Ten. The programs Meyer would be up against lust over Ohio talent. If Michigan can't recruit kids out of Ohio, the program languishes in RichRod style mediocrity.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Talent, I get your argument. You are offering facts and making deductive conclusions from these facts. Good lawyering. I would expect no less.

Others here are offering some form of inductive reasoning or argument involving a hypotheisis (osu is a dirty program and is worthy of harsh punishments levied by the NCAA) based on suppositions (tressel has a record of lying and failing to report; therefore it is reasonable to suppose that he was generally contemptuous and/or dismissive of NCAA rules).

The null hypothesis is: osu is a clean program and does not deserve harsh punishment from the NCAA. You can either reject this or fail to reject it.

Those of us in the camp that believe osu is a dirty program have a data set …. it is observational. e.g., Rife had a place where osu players hung out. There is circumstantial and factual evidence that a number of osu players traded memorabilia for tattoos at Rife’s place. osu players drove automobiles that they failed to register as required by osu compliance. osu compliance was warned about this occurrence by campus police. Nothing seemed to change. Not an insignificant amount of football equipment was claimed to be stolen from lockers by three osu players. It is not unreasonable to conclude that autographed equipment ended up in Talbott’s store, Talbott sold it and an unknown amount of money was provided to players who provided the gear. osu football staff was warned about Talbott in 2007 but he continued to get the benefit of a sideline pass through the 2009 season. There’s more; it’s been out there for months. You and I both know what it is.

From this set of observations, it is not unreasonable to suppose that there was an underground mechanism for paying players (or providing other than monetary benefits, e.g., cars) in place at osu.

Are there links between principals within the osu football program and this list of indicting observations? How valid is the supposition that tressel (smith or gee) knew about this underground mechanism for funneling benefits to players? Its not clear. What is the probability this data set of observations supports rejecting the null hypothesis? What is the probability that this or another data set of observations supports failing to reject the null hypothesis (accepting it).

IMO, the data set of damning observations has a MUCH higher probability of demonstrating the null hypothesis is false than any data set a delusional osu supporter can come up with that demonstrates it is true.

I think you conveniently avoid and/or demean any kind of analytical approach that does not produce a conclusion you wish to advance preferring one that does advance your conclusion. Understood. I just want you to know you are dealing with Michigan men here not a bunch of dolts. There are many ways to advance an argument, by induction is one of them and it is not any less powerful than one based on advancing a position based solely on facts (deduction) as you have chosen to do. There is no one absolute logic by which universal truths can be determined.

You must also understand, and I don’t think I’m telling you something you have not already sweated no small amount about, the COI does not have to listen to deductive arguments limited only to the facts. It can do all the supposing and induction it wants and it can ask osu officials to explain why a particular supposition based on a set of observations alone is unsupportable. In the end, if the explanations osu officials provide (God forbid gene smith should open his mouth) do not make any sense to COI members, any number of harsh punishments are available. USC knows this and others will come to know it, I hope, including osu.

[iam416]

Buchanan:

Whatever reasoning you apply, so long as it's based on fact, I'm fine. The further your conclusion/hypothesis strays from proven facts, the more dubious it becomes. How many "suppositions" do you need to connect the dot. Apparently, a shitload.

Those of us in the camp that believe osu is a dirty program have a data set …. it is observational. e.g., Rife had a place where osu players hung out. There is circumstantial and factual evidence that a number of osu players traded memorabilia for tattoos at Rife’s place. osu players drove automobiles that they failed to register as required by osu compliance. osu compliance was warned about this occurrence by campus police. Nothing seemed to change. Not an insignificant amount of football equipment was claimed to be stolen from lockers by three osu players. It is not unreasonable to conclude that autographed equipment ended up in Talbott’s store, Talbott sold it and an unknown amount of money was provided to players who provided the gear. osu football staff was warned about Talbott in 2007 but he continued to get the benefit of a sideline pass through the 2009 season. There’s more; it’s been out there for months. You and I both know what it is.

And this illustrates my point perfectly. Some facts, some allegations, some suppositions indiscriminately mixed up into a kettle to support some hypothesis.

I just want you to know you are dealing with Michigan men here not a bunch of dolts

Is that deductive or inductive reasoning, either way -- it doesn't match with my experience -- heh. No, you hit on something extremely important -- I AM dealing with "Michigan men" -- that's the problem. There isn't an allegation out there that you WON'T believe. Seriously -- can you acknowledge that any of the allegations made against OSU are wrong? Storm Klein trading memorabilia for tattoos? Thad Gibson getting a free car? I mean, the latter you'd HAVE to concede since the Dispatch had to concede it, right?

Are there links between principals within the osu football program and this list of indicting observations? How valid is the supposition that tressel (smith or gee) knew about this underground mechanism for funneling benefits to players? Its not clear.

With respect to the "underground payment mechanism", it's clear a handful of players traded their own stuff for tattoos. It's also clear SI and ESPN have investigated this story to the hilt and have come across nothing more concrete. ESPN had the Talbott story involving one player. It's quite reasonable to "suppose" that there isn't some sort of systemic payment mechanism. And hence the f'n quandry of wanting to "hammer" OSU. Two mutually exclusive choices can BOTH be "reasonable" suppositions.

As for Ohio State knowing about this -- you nicely ask Ohio State fans to prove a negative. Brilliantly played. I won't even address that issue until offer any fact to support your delusions. The *fact* is OHIO STATE self-reported the memorabilia stuff. Crazy way for OHIO STATE to go about operating a massive, systemic "payment mechanism".

Coach Tressel F'd up and has been reamed to the utmost. It's very disappointing for Ohio State fans, no doubt. But in the end, those wishing for some sort of gigantic University-wide scandal are left with nothing much more than their suppositions.

[hack]

In the end, if OSU gets away with this without major penalties, well, whatever -- nobody ever said life is fair. UM just needs to beat their asses on the field either way. The only thing Tressell was better at than cheating was coaching football, and OSU doesn't have him anymore. That's a major, major loss. Momentum in this rivalry has swung in UM's direction, and if UM's current football program is worthy of its own name than it will take advantage of that and set the tone for the rest of this decade. And OSU won't have excuses for all its losses.

[Jeff Buchanan]

"Two mutually exclusive choices can BOTH be "reasonable" suppositions."

Got it.

You nicely ask Ohio State fans to prove a negative. Brilliantly played.

Thought you'd like that.

But in the end, those wishing for some sort of gigantic University-wide scandal are left with nothing much more than their suppositions.

....... and here in lies the danger for osu and its fan base. You and I both know that the members of the Infractions Committee are completely unpredictable with regard to sanctions. It just takes one guy who can advance a sensible argument during their private deliberations to produce a damaging outcome for osu. It would be nice if they had some clear thinkers there but, alas, I somehow doubt that is the case.

But in the end, those wishing for some sort of gigantic University-wide scandal are left with nothing much more than their suppositions.

[hack]

If the choice was between an extra year of bowl ban and scholarship reductions, or OSU forever being remembered as the cheater that wasn't punished, I'll take the latter. They have the scarlet, so adding the letter will probably stick. It will be so much fun to be able to brag about how they cheat and STILL can't beat UM.

[entropy]

I'd prefer 5 years of 15 scholarship reductions and multi-year bowl bans..... but that's just me. heh

[hack]

They'll get to you later. First there's OSU to embarrass and abuse.

[SeanB]

In my opinion, the momentum in the rivalry won't swing M's way until we actually beat them on the field, sanctions or not.

Sure, osu may be a bit bruised, and losing Tressel hurts, but the kids that are going to suit up for osu on game day aren't going to care about any of that, they're going out there to prove a point and win (whatever misguided point that might be!). So until we beat them, they have the momentum.