M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

Liney:

I always found UM's "health" conditions explanation a bit unsatisfactory. I always thought there was something else going on. Perhaps it's simply a case of "it is what it is," but I dunno. I'm not buying it entirely.

Anyway, the biggest concern with UM as a coach is that he left UF in a mediocre place and "only" won b/c he had a legendary QB to fall back on. Probably some truth to that. If he didn't have a lot of success at BG and Utah, I'd have some concerns. Hard to imagine a guy "lucking" into 3 perfect situations.

Personally, I'd take Saban any day of the week. But I think Coach Meyer would be a pretty good hire, assuming his health allowed him at least 5 years at the program.

Anyway, I'm still of the mind that OSU will shoot for a huge name in December and if they can't land a coach like that, Fickell will be guy.

[lineygoblue]

assuming his health allowed him at least 5 years at the program.

And this is what any program who thinks about hiring Meyer better take into account, and make sure that Meyer's doctor signs on the dotted line that he's clear to take on a HC job again. This is nothing to mess with. There are medications that can help, but if his overall problem is brought on by stress, the only treatment is the reduction of stress. That can't be accomplished if his job is roaming the sidelines as ohio's coach.

[iam416]

I also half-think that OSU is anticipating a one-year post-season ban so that they'll take care of this issue in early December. It would be a bit awkward to deal with it if Fickell has OSU in the B10 CG and potentiall a BCS bowl.

Alternatively, OSU could be anticipating the Joe Bauserman Experience and realize that a December move in advance of the Outback Bowl is no big deal. Heh.

[iam416]

the only treatment is the reduction of stress. That can't be accomplished if his job is roaming the sidelines as ohio's coach.

Bah, there are only like 2 stressful games a year. Suck it up, Coach Meyer!

Heh. No, look, if he's health issues are legitimate and as bad as they were made out to be, he's not going to coach any time soon. Consider me a touch dubious is all.

[lineygoblue]

Why do you think that Bauserman will be the starting QB? I forgot the other kid's name, but wasn't he a top 5 QB out of HS?

[iam416]

Bauserman is like 25 and has been in the program for 3 years.

Miller is a true frosh. Granted, he at least was there for spring ball, but that's a lot to pick up.

I think that JB starts and Braxton Miller eventually takes snaps away. A very poor man's version of the Boeckman-Pryor dynamic in shitatstic 2008 season.

[Hannibal]

I'd be shocked if Miller's not the starter by halfway through the year. Especially since he enrolled early and has an entire spring under his belt. FWIW he doesn't appear to be a total dumbass like Pryor.

Back to the OSU/Tressel/AD mess. The entire college football world will be watching this one closely. If OSU skates with a slap on the wrist (< 5 schollies & no post-season ban IMO), then the MO for any program that wants to win will be this:

1. Hire an aggressive win-at-all-costs cheater as your coach, or a guy who runs such a loose ship that it has the same competitive advantage as purposely cheating
2. Make sure that he keeps AD out of the loop on everything
3. Fire him immediately, say "we're sorry" when he gets caught, and accept your slap on the wrist.
4. Repeat

The whole point of institutional control is to prevent this very process. Personally, to me, it shouldn't matter whether the AD has direct knowledge of a violation. You are responsible for who you hire. The glory for the victories over Michigan isn't firewalled to Tressel and only Jim Tressel. Responsiblity for a severe violation shouldn't be either. Especially when it's a guy who has had smoke pouring out of his programs for decades. How could OSU have prevented Tressel's cheating? I'd argue that they could have prevented it by not hiring a cheater in the first place. Or, they could have established a culture in which this kind of thing is not tolerated. How do you do this? I don't know definitely but I think that could start by not doing away with written evaulations for the "compliance" category right after the guy gets a rating of "unacceptable". It's not as if OSU didn't know who or what they had. The reaction across the country everywhere besides Columbus when Tressel got caught was "Finally -- that sonuvabitch got caught". Not: "Holy shit! Jim Tressel cheats! I can't believe it. I thought he was an honest man who runs a clean program!"

It looks as if the NCAA probably doesn't agree with me. In which case, I hope that Dave Brandon is going to follow the exact path that I have described. I want our star players driving around in "loaner" cars and I want them and their famiilies to suddenly start curiously buying all of their new vehicles from a local dealership owned by a huge Michigan booster. Long story short -- I want our guys getting paid. As long as it's done in a way that when one guy gets busted, the coach shrugs his shoulders innocently and there is no paper trail tying him to the AD.

[Hannibal]

I know that the OSU fans will say that I am biased, and I am, of course, but I think that I'm pretty good at not letting my biases color my perceptions in college football. I'm not one of those homer fans who always thinks that our recruits are underrated or that we are ranked too low, or that we're going to go 12-0 every year. I was very late to climb on board the "Tressel is a cheater" train. I was willing to write off Maurice Clarett as being a crazy liar and I as willing to accept the excuse that everything that happened at Youngstown State was completely behind Tressel's back and he knew nothing whatsoever about it. I also figured that probably every program had a little skeleton here and there (but my attitude on letting those things go changed somewhat when we got dragged through the mud for practicing an extra 15 minutes a day and having some low level assistant coach monitor summer workouts.)

If this were happening at Michigan, I'd be thinking the same things. Granted, I would be extremely unhapy about it, and I'd be hoping that the NCAA would go easy on us, but it wouldn't stop me from privately thinking that we deserve to get assfucked.

[iam416]

The question, IMO, is who can you deter? Keeping the issue the facts of the case -- which is almost f'n impossible with this story -- the facts of significance are that 6 players traded memorabilia for tattoos and other benefits and Coach Tressel was tipped off to TP and Posey doing this in April 2010 and failed to properly notify anyone. Also, of significance, Ohio State self-reported both the players' and Coach Tressel's transgressions.

So, who's to be deterred? It's quite clear that no one thinks Ohio State should have been monitoring all of Coach Tressel's e-mails. Ergo, it's quite f'n clear that there was no way for Ohio State to uncover the Cicero e-mails contemporaneously.

It's also quite clear who can be deterred -- the Coach. Coaches need to understand that this behavior will lead to their ruin. That's where the deterrent value is. And, by-god, it has been Coach Tressel's ruin. His reptuation and job are gone and the NCAA is about to slap a show-cause order on him. That would seem to me to be a fairly effective deterrent. There is no doubt, IMO, that Coach Tressel is going to get railed.

Back to Ohio State -- as admitted by all -- aside from total e-mail surveillance there was nothing they could have done differently to bring this matter to light 7 months earlier. As admitted by all, Ohio State also self-reported both the players' issues and Coach Tressel's issue. If the NCAA were to hammer Ohio State, the message is this: don't self-report. Afterall, there's no behavior that OSU could have reasonably modified, so there's no deterrent message. The only thing that gets deterred is self-reporting. Why on earth would OSU tell the NCAA about these little e-mails -- e-mails containing information that has already come to light and for which the players have already been punished -- if the NCAA is only going to shove a 2x4 up your ass sideways? Why?

Now, that said, Tressel was the head coach so they can't skate entirely. If it were an assistant coach or something, I'd absolve the University entirely (even though your logic would apply equally -- "don't hire cheaters"). As such, something more will be added on, but it will be consistent with appropriate deterrent values and the severity of the charges. At least that's my opinion. And then, of course, the haters will howl.

Finally, the written vs oral reviews thing remains near the top of the list of silliest arguments out there.

The reaction across the country everywhere besides Columbus when Tressel got caught was "Finally -- that sonuvabitch got caught". Not: "Holy shit! Jim Tressel cheats! I can't believe it. I thought he was an honest man who runs a clean program!"

I strongly dispute that statement, but it's of no consequence to anything.

[Hannibal]

Finally, the written vs oral reviews thing remains near the top of the list of silliest arguments out there.

No it doesn't. There's a reason why I sign my yearly performance evaluation every year stating that I have both read it and discussed it with my supervisor. It is because documentation of my performance is just as important as the evaluation itself. Precisely for these kinds of reasons. This is especially true of managers. i.e. people who could seriously embarrass the company somehow by doing something wrong. I have never in my life gotten oral evaluations, and I don't know anyone who has. Nor have I gotten oral evaluations in a specific category, but not others.

Gene Smith and the OSU fans are trying to argue that Jim Tressel had an oustanding record of compliance up until this whole fiasco. Fine. Where's the data that shows this? The data I have seen says that Tressel had a poor compliance record, as acknowledged on multiple occasions in writing by Andy Geiger. Then the data stops. Nothing else of significance is available. OSU is asking for leniency because there's supposedly no way that they could have known this was coming. If you ask me, the burden of proof is on OSU to show this.

[iam416]

If you ask me, the burden of proof is on OSU to show this.

I'd expect no other position from you.

As far as I can tell, 2005-06 was the only year Tressel was graded unsatisfactory in certain compliance areas (in other compliance areas, he was rated outstanding). The rest of the stuff was CYA letters of reprimand from Geiger. So, if year-end reviews matter, the written ones we have by and large should "outstanding" compliance. But that's the thing -- there's no context. At all. As with nearly every story about OSU -- cherry pick the bad facts and report!

I should also be noted that Coach Matta had a similar number of letters of reprimand in his file during the same timeframe and also was rated as unsatisfactory in a compliance area during the same timeframe. He has subsequently rec'd glowing reports, but those are all Gene Smith Era reports which have to be ignore. I can only imagine that if Matta does something wrong, it will have to be LOIC -- I mean, for god's sake, they know it's coming! I'm very disappointed to learn that. He's built such a great program for OSU.

Of far greater significance is that this remarkably thin reed is the link to "hammer Ohio State." I laid out, in precise terms, why the NCAA shouldn't hammer OSU. If you think they should get hammered because of two "unsatisfactory" rating in certain compliance issues in a single year and oral reports, so be it. In that case, I can scarcely imagine anything that wouldn't amount to LoIC.

[Hannibal]

If the NCAA were to hammer Ohio State, the message is this: don't self-report. Afterall, there's no behavior that OSU could have reasonably modified, so there's no deterrent message. The only thing that gets deterred is self-reporting. Why on earth would OSU tell the NCAA about these little e-mails -- e-mails containing information that has already come to light and for which the players have already been punished -- if the NCAA is only going to shove a 2x4 up your ass sideways? Why?

An interesting argument, but one that I don't agree with for a few reasons...

1. How cares if an institution self reports if the most important member of that institution is covering things up?

2. When was the last time that anything of significant competitive advantage was discovered and self-reported? Does this ever happen? Schools self-report shit like paying for a ham sandwich or a phone call, but they never discover or elf-report the Chris Webbers, Reggie Bushes, Cam Newtons or Maurice Claretts of the world. It's left up to court records, police records, or the media to do this pretty much every time. With OSU IIRC, the Cicero e-mails were discovered by the legal department on an unrelated matter. By that point, you're talking about lots of people with knowledge of this event.

3. Institutions will still have incentive to self-report as long as there is an extra penalty if it is later found that you covered something up.

4. In other situations analogous to this (such as environmental compliance in manufacturing businesses), the practice of self-reporting still works despite the occasional stiff penalty.

5. I'd argue that part of the penalty in this case should be OSU's complete lack of contrition. IMHO when OSU gave Tressel their own slap on the wrist, they took ownership of the problem.

[Hannibal]

II can only imagine that if Matta does something wrong, it will have to be LOIC

Well, no. It's the opposite actually.

I should remind you that Geiger's written evaluations are only one tiny piece of the picture, from where I'm sitting. This is pretty recent information. Tressel's reputation as a cheater predates it by a long way.

[iam416]

(1) I do, if that's the only way the employee of that institution is eventually punished.

(2) I like this. Fair enough. I concur that OSU self-reported nothing of significant competitive advantage. The fact is, the still self-reported.

(3) Like USC. Yet, I keep hearing how Ohio State should get "USC-type" punishment. Something doesn't equate. But such is howling mob.

(4) The price of self-reporting and not self-reporting is about to be laid bare. Ohio State *could* get hammered. And Auburn could celebrate its BCS Title for years to come.

(5) If you point me to the NCAA rules on contrition, then I'd agree. It's obvious to everyone with a head on their shoulder that the 2 game suspension was issued b/c they didn't want to upset their appeals position on the Tat-5. When that was resolved at 5 games, Tressel got his 5. And was eventually fired. So, apparently, you have to be immediately contrite (as opposed to waiting 8 weeks) or face the wrath of the NCAA? C'mon.

[iam416]

I should remind you that Geiger's written evaluations are only one tiny piece of the picture, from where I'm sitting. This is pretty recent information. Tressel's reputation as a cheater predates it by a long way.

Uh, ok. The NCAA was finished up with Tressel and the YSU stuff when Ohio State hired him (and nothing new has been reported except Ray Isaac finally being lured out of hiding to call Dohrman a liar). The NCAA has completed the Maurice Clarett investigation, and nothing new has been reported on that except Maurice Clarett saying he lied to Tom Friend about a lot the stuff. I'm not exactly sure what Ohio State should have done -- apparently never hired Tressel. Apparently, the minute they hired Tressel, they were on the hook for LoIC. But whatever.

ESPN and others have had a full go at OSU and the only thing that's been proven is, well, what OSU self-reported. Though, I'm quite sure millions still think Gibson got a free car and Storm Klein traded memorabilia for tattoos (of which, he has zero). But such is life.