M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

You know, but even if we're disagreeing as to whether the allegations have been proven false to some degree of certainty, that's the high ground for me and other Ohio State fans. Because that means it's clear is that the above allegations haven't come to close to be proven true with any meaningful degree of certainty.

So, yeah, whether they've been "sufficiently" proven false is in the eye of the beholder -- I'll concede that. There is, however, no doubt that proof exists that tends to prove them more likely false than not. How much more likely, as I said, is in the eye of beholder. I'll take facts over sources or statements, personally. That's why I'm not championing Ray Isaac's obliteration of Dorhman or Maurice Clarett doing the same. Those are just statements. Not really objective facts.

[Mike]

So you don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that Tressel/osu intentionally withheld information to the NCAA until after the Sugar Bowl so that their star players and head coach could participate? If the NCAA feels they did so to gain a competitive advantage - which it certainly looks like to everyone in 49 of our 50 states - than a bowl ban should be in order. I don't hold out hope of the NCAA doing the right thing, however.

[iam416]

So you don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that Tressel/osu intentionally withheld information to the NCAA until after the Sugar Bowl so that their star players and head coach could participate? If the NCAA feels they did so to gain a competitive advantage - which it certainly looks like to everyone in 49 of our 50 states - than a bowl ban should be in order. I don't hold out hope of the NCAA doing the right thing, however.

(1) We've established that Tressel withheld information in December, none of which was pertinent to whether the players could play. All the information concerning the players re Tat5 was disclosed to the NCAA. What would have changed re the players if the NCAA knew about Tressel? The answer is actually laid bare for us to see: NOTHING. The NCAA suspended the players 5 games prior to knowing about Tressel's failure to disclose his knowledge of Cicero's tip and that suspension remained the same after NCAA found out about that.

(2) As for Ohio State, apparently the theory goes that Ohio State withheld knowledge about Tressel's involvement so that they could win the Sugar Bowl and THEN reported it a month later? I suppose it's conceivably within the realm of possibility, but it reminds of Jim Carrey in Dumb Dumber saying "So you're saying there's a chance!" Regardless, "not beyond the realm of possiblity" isn't any standard the NCAA or any right-minded organization will apply to assessing the veracity of allegations.

(3) I bet 49 of 50 states think Ohio State did NOT self-report the Tressel violations. In fact, I'd wager my house on that. More to the point, I'm not sure when ESPN polls came to constitute NCAA rules.

(4) The NCAA has done the right thing to date. I'm fairly confident they'll continue so doing and, in particular, not yielding to a pitchfork mob whipped into a frenzy by a host of unproven allegations from the noble press.

[Mike]

You must be very proud that ohio state apparently will slither their way out of any meaningful punishment. That the NCAA lacks the necessary authority or backbone to properly bring rogue programs such as ohio state to heel should not be mistaken for vindication or innocence. While Tressel's 10-year disregard for the rules finally cost him his job, it is akin to the feds busting Al Capone for tax evasion. The perp may be off the streets but it rings a little hollow to law-abiding citizens who demand justice.

BTW, this is OT from the WC forum. I'm glad you showed up to address the issue but honestly I thought if/when you visited, it would be done with hat in hand. Just like every other ohio fan I know you seem convinced that there is nothing more to ohio/Tressel's shenanigans beyond what has already been proven. It's like the driver who gets arrested for DUI and claims it's the only time he/she has ever done it. The buckeye nation seems to honestly believe that Tressel's only mistake was not sharing the Cicero email with his admin and that an entire "10-year pattern of abuse" - albeit mostly circumstantial evidence - is simply sour grapes and poor reporting by the media. Willful ignorance.

At a bare minimum the mask has been torn off the ohio state football program to reveal what most of us here had known for years: They are one of the dirtiest in all the land. While they will skate into the sunset relatively unscathed, in the eyes of the nation ohio state is now synonymous with Miami of the 80's and 90's, USC, the SWC of the 80's, Auburn, Alabama. I know it makes you proud.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Allegations are the same thing as established facts. Like the allegation, for instance, that Charles Woodson was in contact with NFL agents before his career at Michigan was over and was technically ineligible for the 1998 Rose Bowl. That's an established fact

[iam416]

Just like every other ohio fan I know you seem convinced that there is nothing more to ohio/Tressel's shenanigans beyond what has already been proven. It's like the driver who gets arrested for DUI and claims it's the only time he/she has ever done it.

I'm happy to see you acknowledge what has been proven is miles away from what has been alleged. And call me crazy, and perhaps I am, but I don't think a driver arrested for a DUI should be charged with 15 DUIs and thrown in prison for 15 years because he "must" have done it before. I'm thankful that's not the way the system works. Apparently, you're not.

While Tressel's 10-year disregard for the rules finally cost him his job

His failure to forward the Cicero tip cost him his job.

That the NCAA lacks the necessary authority or backbone to properly bring rogue programs such as ohio state to heel should not be mistaken for vindication or innocence.

Thankfully, the NCAA is constrained by facts and evidence. Thankfully, the NCAA cannot legitimately substitute supposition and baseless accusation for facts and evidence. Thankfully, SOMEONE had to scrutinize the evidence.

I don't much care if you or "49 of 50 states" believe every single word written about Ohio State, despite actual facts to the contrary. That's your perogative and, as a M fan, I'd expect nothing else. In fact, you should bask in Ohio State's PR misery -- and I'm sure you have. I, however, will continue to try to assess the veracity of the allegations based on as many facts as I can. Afterall, were I merely a dittohead, I might actually still believe Thad Gibson was given a free car! The press reported it, afterall.

[Jeff Buchanan]

On balance, talent, I don't disagree with your positions contained in the lengthy analysis above.

If I were a member of the COI that will be seated in August and I heard arguments such as those you have presented (or an approach in presentation that was in a similar vein), my question would be, "what factual evidence can you present to us that refutes my belief that when you first knew of coach tressel's cover-up in February, instead of immediately firing him for cause, you imposed a punishment that is, in my view, laughable given the severity and implications of this particular 10.1 violation."

Let me expand on this ....."What was imposed with respect to coach tressel suggests a disregard for the importance of truthfulness and cooperation in dealing with significant rule breaking. If this punishment had stood, for example if the Dohrman article had not seemed to be the last straw for those charged with making a decision on coach tressel's continued employment, a low bar would have been set for other member institutions with regard to truth telling would it not have been?

So, it seems to me, that it is less a matter of determining whether the hard facts support your contention that osu has self reported in accordance with the rules, has fully cooperated with the NCAA in its investigation of the allegations and so forth ....... as you have put it, proven the facts of this case or disproven the allegations to a "high degree of certainty," ..... but rather it is about the appearance of questionable conduct (slow playing) the NCAA in dealing with a very significant NCAA rules violations on coach tressel's part until your position of retaining him seemed no longer tenable.

It seems almost as if you dared us (the NCAA) to do something between the time you first were certain that coach tressel had lied about his players receiving inappropriate benefits and the time the decision was made to fire him. You most certainly understood, or should have understood, that failing this action, we would have issued a Show Cause Letter to the coach, right?

Given these perceptions, my view is that osu did not demonstrate, as is it's responsibility to do as an NCAA member institution, an appropriate degree of seriousness with regard to the nature of the violations of rules that have already been established. To put it plainly, you felt you may be able to avoid a worst case outcome by incrementally imposing punishments in an effort to see what the reaction was instead of taking the lead and doing what was right very early in the process.

I find this sort of behavior to be distasteful, an affront to the NCAA and demanding of significant additional punishments beyond those that you have already implied. Please convince me that such steps are unnecessary."

[Mike]

His failure to forward the Cicero tip cost him his job.

Yep. Obviously the only indescretion Tressel ever had in his whole life.

[iam416]

Oh, and to be clear -- it's not unreasonable to think there's more to the situation than has been proven. It's not unreasonable to think more than the Tat5 + Dorian Bell had some sort of relationship with Rife selling memorabilia. It's not unreasonable to think TP was getting handouts. What is unreasonable, IMO, is to assert those allegations as god's-honest fact.

And to add to this a bit more -- there are two types of things that I think the NCAA should really crack down on: buying recruits and academic fraud. The first inherently goes to fair competition (as does, e.g., oversigning and other recruiting issues). The second goes directly to the institution's mission. I have little tolerance for either.

Getting paid significant amounts of money rates next. It doesn't really go to fair competition (unless it's known to recruits that this is what happens --but then, I'd consider that a recruiting issue and put it in the above category). But, it breaks, in a big way, NCAA rules.

"$100 handshakes" or selling memorabilia or, frankly, signing with an agent -- I rate these pretty low. Selling your own stuff or signing with an agent is not inherently immoral nor does it provide an ounce of competitive advantage to the school. I understand rules are rules, so they need to be followed, but that stuff just doesn't raise my ire in the least. Never has.

I guess, upon reflection, my own personal scale is a bit like a pyramid with the top violations being performed by far fewer schoos than, e.g., the "$100 handshakes" that are, I would guess, fairly widespread.

I'm sure I had a point, but I forgot it. Whatever.

[Jeff Buchanan]

"Thankfully, the NCAA is constrained by facts and evidence. Thankfully, the NCAA cannot legitimately substitute supposition and baseless accusation for facts and evidence. Thankfully, SOMEONE had to scrutinize the evidence."

This is patently incorrect. The NCAA is not and has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by its past rulings, that it is not a court of law bound by the same constraints as those imposed in a legal proceeding.

This is why the view I expressed above (if I were on the COI panel) is valid and why views like this, held by any number of panel members, may have a significant impact on the penalties imposed.

I for one, hope that such views prevail and that the artful dodging going on by members of osu's legal team and their advisor's will be recognized for what they are and in the end osu gets absolutely hammered.

Unfortunately, I won't be holding my breath for that. But as OT explains above, osu, for a while anyway, is and will be the laughing stock of college football. Nothing right that program does will reverse the pain of that ridicule. I'm happy that tressel has been exposed, is gone and osu will suffer some degree of indignity for years to come.

[SeanB]

Selling your own stuff or signing with an agent is not inherently immoral nor does it provide an ounce of competitive advantage to the school.

Here I would disagree. Not because of the severity of the offenses, but if a recruit knows that patterns exist for these behaviors, and that there are few, if any ramifications for engaging in them, then that, in and of itself, can prove to be a recruiting advantage. A big one, IMO.

Nice to see you back with your explanations. Good reads.

[iam416]

"what factual evidence can you present to us that refutes my belief that when you first knew of coach tressel's cover-up in February, instead of immediately firing him for cause, you imposed a punishment that is, in my view, laughable given the severity and implications of this particular 10.1 violation."

I have an answer! Mr. Buchanan of the CoI (shudder), several years ago we were faced with a similar situation. We had a coach that pretty clearly violated NCAA rules. In fact, to our mind, what he did was worse than anything Coach Tressel did -- he was more or less running a Serbian pipeline for mediocre basketball players. Well, Mr. Buchanan, you know what we did -- we acted decisively and fired him for cause. He then sued us for wrongful termination. And he WON! I know, it's amazing, Mr. Buchanan that violation of your rules -- the NCAA's rules -- didn't justify our termination of that coach. As a result, we had to pay him a significant verdict.

So, in this situation we knew we had an issue, but we knew we had to take all the proper steps before going forward. This involved getting significant members of the Board of Trustees on board as well as talking through the options with Coach Tressel and getting him to agree to the parting of the ways. We finally did that in May, well before he coached any further games for us.

It seems almost as if you dared us (the NCAA) to do something between the time you first were certain that coach tressel had lied about his players receiving inappropriate benefits and the time the decision was made to fire him. You most certainly understood, or should have understood, that failing this action, we would have issued a Show Cause Letter to the coach, right?

I concede that we "dared" you to do something when we reported the incident and made Coach Tressel available for an interview, which he participated in without an attorney. We were well aware of your standard timeline in handling this matters -- from the NoA to the hearing to your eventual ruling -- and knew we had some flexibility as to when we could act. We did so within the known timeframe and fired a legendary coach.

Finally a quick word as to why Coach Tressel was only suspended 2 games at the outset. At that time, we were appealing the 5 game suspension of the players and asking for 2. We believed it would undermine our appeal if we suspended Tressel for more games than the players were going to be suspended for. If we had our druthers, we would have waited to address this issue publicly until the appeal ran its course. Unfortunately, the press wouldn't allow us. As soon as the appeal was upheld, we upped Tressel's suspension.

[iam416]

Yep. Obviously the only indescretion Tressel ever had in his whole life.

I'm quite sure Coach Tressel is fallible. I'm sure his indiscretions and mistakes are many. I'm also quite sure that his failure to forward the Cicero e-mails to the proper personnel is the only indiscretion for which he was fired.

Here I would disagree. Not because of the severity of the offenses, but if a recruit knows that patterns exist for these behaviors, and that there are few, if any ramifications for engaging in them, then that, in and of itself, can prove to be a recruiting advantage. A big one, IMO.

I agree. I had a bit in there about how if recruits KNEW that this is how it works, then it would be an advantage and that I'd put it back up in recruiting violations.

[iam416]

This is patently incorrect. The NCAA is not and has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by its past rulings, that it is not a court of law bound by the same constraints as those imposed in a legal proceeding.

Well, I don't have a particularly high opinion of the NCAA, but I do believe they are constrained by facts and evidence. Those constraints are certainly no where as severe as a criminal proceeding and probably approximate a civil proceeding. But I feel somewhat certain that the NCAA does require a factual basis to serve you with a NoA and subsequently bring the hammer down. I'm also sure that the allegations don't have to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt," but still must be, at least, more probable than not.

[Jeff Buchanan]

"$100 handshakes" or selling memorabilia or, frankly, signing with an agent -- I rate these pretty low. Selling your own stuff or signing with an agent is not inherently immoral nor does it provide an ounce of competitive advantage to the school. I understand rules are rules, so they need to be followed, but that stuff just doesn't raise my ire in the least. Never has.


You should be and it surprises me that you are not more concerned about this.

I believe that this is presently, and has been for a long time, the means by which elite football programs who operate in the gray areas, even though it is unethical, entice elite recruits to sign and reward their loyalty once they are singed and are playing.

I believe it is this kind of environment (under the table pay to play schemes) at osu that attracted terrell pryor to osu (glad osu got that guy and not M). This kind of thing according to trusted friends I have that are knowledgeable about the SEC is rampant, common place and tolerated.

I agree that this may be very difficult to police and stop but it has to because it shades the playing field in favor of schools that do it ..... and I believe tressel brought that kind of thing to osu.