M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[iam416]

What do you think will be the ultimate penalty?

2-3 scholarships for 2 years. That's what is consistent with the 10.1 allegations in this case. In addition, of course, to losing a legendary coach and a Heisman-contender QB and losing 5 other players for various numbers of games in 2011.

If the NCAA wants to get frisky, they could use a repeat offender tag to add a post-season ban. I think that's a realistic possibility, but less than likely.

In any event, they'll be fine.

[Hannibal]

I can understand why a Michigan fan would be frustrated right now. Your superiors avoid the most severe punishments and now you have to nervously hope and pray that at least a short bowl ban gets dealt out. Else all those recruits Hoke's been sucking in (the ones who "love" Michigan) are going to start having second thoughts. Maybe their love for Coach Hoke AKA "Negarecruiter" isn't as deep as previously thought.

Unlikely. The two big guys that we got (Strobel and Kalis) are staying Blue. Most of our other key recruits are guys that OSU was never in play for or simply didn't offer. But some of the other Ohio guys that we have been recruiting are probably off the table. Brionte Dunn specifically. I'm more worried about losing Terry Richardson than anyone else.

[Optimus Prime]

Talent wearing a "Scarlet O" for only 48 hours after nearly a decade of giving many the OSU superciliously high hat, come on...from day one I was of the opinion that this was the tip of the iceberg and it would ultimately cost Tressel his job, of course I was right all along.

[iam416]

You were right that it would cost Tressel is job. I was wrong. Doesn't seem to be much of the tip of iceberg, though. I mean, media-wise it was. Fact-wise, eh.

[iam416]

Anyway, my take on the whole thing for your reading pleasure. Heh.

The issue is still about the Tat5 and Tressel. The voluminous stories of improprieties in other areas have either been disproven to high degree of certainty (Gibson getting a free car; the rest of the Dispatch cars story; Dohrman's 9 additional current players allegations; the NCAA has checks from Talbot to Pryor) or are not likely to be proven true or false (Talbot paying Pryor some amount of money). When you take the sum of all the stories floating around out there, the only stuff that is proven is the Tat5 and Tressel's failure to report the Cicero tip. In fact, I can identify far more allegations that have been proven untrue to a high degree of certainty than additional allegations that have been proven true to any real degree of certainty. I am, incidentally, happy to deal with all of various allegations from the press individually, if you wish.

So, with that in mind, let's turn to the issue. We know the issue with the Tat5. That penalty is straightforward and has been assessed. Tressel obviously f'd up by not forwarding along Cicero's tip on TP and Posey. He's been fired. There's not much more the NCAA can do to Tressel that hasn't been done other than slap a show-cause order on him.

So, now the question is what responsibility does Ohio State bear? Well, I'll start from the point that the University self-reported, in a timely fashion, both the Tat5 stuff and the Tressel stuff. Those facts suggest that if Ohio State did know about the tip from Cicero, they would have investigated and/or reported. Alright, so should Ohio State have known? Well, Tressel told exactly 3 people about the Cicero tip ? Posey, TP and Sarniak. Perhaps Ohio State could have monitored his e-mail. I dunno. But I'm not sure how Ohio State is supposed to detect this infraction. Alright, well, still is this a failure to monitor? Eh, I'm not going to pretend to know what satisfies the NCAA on various rules. I've read gads of opinions by folks on what NCAA penalties should be who, I'm quite certain, haven't the first clue either. It doesn't, however, seem to me that a failure to detect Tressel's Cicero tip amounts to a failure to monitor. Perhaps if they strung together a host of incidents, then maybe. As it stands, it's one. So, the University, IMO, is in the clear in that regard.

Ok, well Tressel isn't just some Podunk assistant ? he's the head coach ? shouldn't that count against Ohio State? Isn't he, more or less, high enough up that is actions ought to count as Ohio State's? Fair question. I don't think there's any question, at all, that if some assistant had done this he would have been fired and Ohio State would be absolutely in the clear. But this is the head coach. I actually agree, to some extent, with this reasoning. I think that because it was the head coach the penalties ought to be stiffer. So, instead of just hitting them with the player suspensions and firing of the coach, the penalties probably need to a bit more. I think 2-3 scholarships per year for 2 years seems likely in view of past NCAA penalties concerning similar 10.1 violations.

In the end, my greatest criticisms are of how Ohio State failed to handle the story. They knew, KNEW that they would have to deal with this story as early as February when they self-reported. They knew, KNEW Tressel's story by February 13th (I think) when he was interviewed by the NCAA. It's amazing to me that they didn't get out in front of the story and tell it themselves. It's amazing to me that they weren't even prepared to handle the issue in March. It's amazing to me that they couldn't foresee the firestorm coming. They totally botched it. Now, to be fair to OSU, after reading Tressel's transcript, I certainly didn't get the sense that the NCAA was coming after him with guns ablazing. So, maybe that played into it a bit ? but good lord did they botch the PR on it. I mean, the bulk of the country would probably tell you that Ohio State did NOT self-report this issue. When, in fact, if that were the case, Coach Tressel would still be coaching at Ohio State. Amazing failure on their part.

Finally, when Coach Tressel resigned, it was a very sad for me. I will miss him greatly. I understand what had to be done, but it still was a terrible day. I will probably go out to a HSFB game the first week of the season as a show of support for the Ohio HS coaches. I will certainly be in attendance when he's invited back to Dot the "I". His book is closed and now it's onward with Coach Fickell who, by most accounts, was a quasi-coach-in-waiting. We just assumed he'd have to wait 3-4 more years. I hope he succeeds. I understand that Coach Meyer would be an instant cure-all for OSU's problems, but I'd prefer to see Coach Fickell succeed. Anyway, we'll see how it plays out.

As for the season ? they'll still be pretty good. The lack of a QB will really hurt them, but even so, I expect they'll be in contention for the B10 CG.

[Jeff Buchanan]

If the NCAA wants to get frisky, they could use a repeat offender tag to add a post-season ban. I think that's a realistic possibility, but less than likely. In any event, they'll be fine.

My bet ..... they'll base the post season ban on osu's effort in slow playing the NCAA with the tressel dismissal. He should have been gone at the first sniff of his lying. Relatively certain.

Glad your back .... understand your viewpoint though on time wasted.

Any chance of a visit with the best part of your family - wife and kids - to AA in November? I want to be there for the tears after the game.

[Optimus Prime]

Fact-wise there was plenty IMO, a decade of OSU former and even current players made many of the very same assertions, the sad thing is that it's nearly impossible to actually get caught and NCAA "enforcement" is a farce.

[iam416]

My bet ..... they'll base the post season ban on osu's effort in slow playing the NCAA with the tressel dismissal. He should have been gone at the first sniff of his lying. Relatively certain.

Can you explain why the NCAA would care about whether he's fired in March or May?

That's one area of "outrage" that always struck me as silly -- well, Ohio State's press conference was terrible -- the NCAA will get them! Yeah, conceded, they botched the press conference (see above post). But why in the name of hedley lamar would the NCAA give a rat's ass about that? Or when Coach Tressel was fired?

Any chance of a visit with the best part of your family - wife and kids - to AA in November? I want to be there for the tears after the game.

Zero chance in November and probably zero chance this season. Our big trip this year is to Lincoln and she wants to come. In any event, I'd hate to see what a wrecked man you'll be after all the promise of the off-season ends with M's 8th straight loss to Ohio State. Heh.

[iam416]

Fact-wise there was plenty IMO, a decade of OSU former and even current players made many of the very same assertions, the sad thing is that it's nearly impossible to actually get caught and NCAA "enforcement" is a farce.

It's difficult to get "caught" because the NCAA scrutinizes allegations a bit more than the press. Wait, did I imply that the press scrutinizesd some of its allegations against Ohio State? My bad. Thad Giibson got a free car! Jesus.

As for the "a decade of OSU former and even current players," if that were the case, Ohio State would be deader than fried chicken.

[Optimus Prime]

If Tressel's departure only serves to open the door for Urban Meyer, I will be totally pissed. Fickell must have moderate "Rich Rod" success as the new HC in order to tie OSU's hands for 3 years or so...... If in the end if it only meant trading Tressel for Meyer (best coach in the game) the Big Ten is gonna take a beating! Enjoy your summer.

[iam416]

If Tressel's departure only serves to open the door for Urban Meyer, I will be totally pissed. Fickell must have moderate "Rich Rod" success as the new HC in order to tie OSU's hands for 3 years or so...... If in the end if it only meant trading Tressel for Meyer (best coach in the game) the Big Ten is gonna take a beating! Enjoy your summer.

Heh. Well, Urbie wouldn't be around too long. That's why I hope Fickell does well -- he has the potential to be an institution. Urban won't last much past 6 or 7 years, IMO. That said, he's an instant cure-all. There's not much doubt about that.

Hope you're having a good summer, too, OP.

[Hannibal]

The overwhelming majority of the vehicle improprieties haven't been proven false. This includes tickets that players have received in "loaner" vehicles, which are a matter of public record. OSU is not even disputing those facts. They are simply saying that they don't constitute an improper benefit. This, of course, means that you are I could walk into Auto Direct and "test drive" a car anywhere for as long as we wanted. Then, after getting a speeding ticket in that car, we could get later a free "loaner" when our car was in the shop for repairs. This also means that you have to be dumb and gullible enough to believe that the only times that Pryor was driving around in his "loaner" just happened to be the three times that he got a ticket.

The Ohio BMV only determined that no laws were broken with the vehicle purchases. They did no investigation with regards to vehicle financing. Contrary to the hilarious delusions of Buckeye fans, the BMV did not determine that no NCAA violations were committed by Ohio State athletes. It is not their job to determine whether the players and their famililes paid for the vehicles with their own means. To this day, nobody has, and it looks like nobody ever will unless the IRS gets involved. Personally, if this happened at Michigan, I'd be pretty damn suspicious. The fact that there aren't any Buckeyes with even a healthy sense of skepticism is pretty astonishing to me.

In your defense of your university, you left out a few facts. One is that Tressel had numerous negative remarks in his personnel file regarding compliance from the previous athletic director. This only stopped when the new athletic director mysteriously stopped doing written evaluations in this area. At this point, whether or not the university could have detected the Cicero e-mails became irrelevant. OSU knew that they had a problem for years and they did nothing about it. This event was inevitable. To top that off, Gene Smith publicly contradicted own itnernal evaluations when they claimed that Tressel had an exemplary compliance record. With that said, it sounds like there will be no additional penalties because of it. I think that your estimation of the penalties is right at this point. But I do think that OSU will get a one year bowl ban because of the negative PR associated with the Tat 5 being allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl.

Dohrman's article hasn't been "disproven" either. His source refused to talk to the NCAA because he wasn't granted anonymity. Anyone else interviewed by the NCAA is probably implicating themselves if they say that they got improper benefits. But before the consequences were fully understood, Antonio Pittman claimed that players had been getting set up with deals on tattoos since 2001. Later, Ray Small went on the record in the news and pretty much confirmed that Columbus was Blingtown, USA. You can say that the NCAA had no choice but to drop the matter when nobody was willing to testify to support the allegations in the Dohrman article. To claim that they have been proven false is simply hilarious. If there had never been a court case against Reggie Bush, USC fans could say the same thing. Ray Small and Antonio Pittman are just one of about a dozen sources over the past ten years that paint a huge mosaic of the OSU program under Tressel. The only logical defense that you could have is that every single one of them is lying, which is highly unlikely.

[Hannibal]

Urban Meyer is done coaching. Focus on getting another guy. I think that it will be Fickell. If he goes 10-3, the "interim" label will get removed.

[iam416]

The Ohio BMV only determined that no laws were broken with the vehicle purchases. They did no investigation with regards to vehicle financing. Contrary to the hilarious delusions of Buckeye fans, the BMV did not determine that no NCAA violations were committed by Ohio State athletes. It is not their job to determine whether the players and their famililes paid for the vehicles with their own means. To this day, nobody has, and it looks like nobody ever will. Personally, if this happened at Michigan, I'd be pretty damn suspicious. The fact that there aren't any Buckeyes with even a healthy sense of skepticism is pretty astonishing to me.

I agree that the BMV did not make any assessment as to NCAA violations. What the BMV did do, however, is determine that the dealership didn't provide Ohio State athletes any improper deals and that the dealership, in fact, made money on 24 of the 25 sales at issue.

Now, I agree - they didn't look at whether the players and families paid for those cars with their own means, but that was never the story. The story implied that a car dealership was cutting Ohio State football players sweatheart deals. Shit, Ohio State athletes (poor Jon Diebler, even!). The BMV report concludes that the dealership made money on the sales.

There's isn't a shred of actual evidence to support the argument that dealership did cut players sweetheart deals.

In your defense of your university, you left out a few facts. One is that Tressel had numerous negative remarks in his personnel file regarding compliance from the previous athletic director. This only stopped when the new athletic director mysteriously stopped doing written evaluations in this area. At this point, whether or not the university could have detected the Cicero e-mails became irrelevant. OSU knew that they had a problem for years and they did nothing about it. This event was inevitable. With that said, it sounds like there will be no additional penalties because of it.

This is one my favorite lines of bad argument. It takes, what 6 or 7 notices in a personnel file and imputes knowledge to the University! My god! Is there any context provided at all? How many reviews was Tressel given? How many times was he given good reviews? How many times was he given good merits on compliance? How many times were other coaches similarly reprimanded? What were the reprimands for? And so on. Give me the full story instead of cherry-picked facts. That's all I ask.

That entire story is a little like saying Mike Nugent missed 4 FGs and then concluding, one way or the other, that he's a good or bad kicker.

Dohrman's article hasn't been "disproven" either. His source refused to talk to the NCAA because he wasn't granted anonymity. Anyone else interviewed by the NCAA is probably implicating themselves if they say that they got improper benefits. But before the consequences were fully understood, Antonio Pittman claimed that players had been getting set up with deals on tattoos since 2001. Later, Ray Small went on the record and pretty much confirmed that Columbus was Blingtown, USA. You can say that the NCAA had no choice but to drop the matter when nobody was willing to testify to support the allegations in the Dohrman article. To claim that they have been proven false is simply hilarious.

We'll start with the 9 current players that Dohrman made allegations against. Ohio State accounted for something like 48 of the 50 pieces of "memorabilia" they were given by the University. One guy didn't -- Dorian Bell -- and he's out. Then you have at least two players who adamantly come forward and call total bullshit. Storm Klein, e.g., doesn't even have a tattoo. What Dorhman almost certainly did was have his source identify players who had visited the shop and then find autographed memorabilia in the shop with their name on it. Nevermind that Rife bought tons of stuff off the eBay. The evidence in support of Dohrman's article on this 9 players is strongly outweighted by the actual evidence. BTW, does anyone find it funny that his "source" wouldn't testify b/c he was afraid of Rife. I've heard that excuse from someone before....

To Antonio Pittman and 2001. What we know is that any actions preceding the Georgia issue in 2003 weren't going to punished by the NCAA because the rules weren't clear enough. So, who cares if it happened prior to 2003?

Anyway, as it currently stands, the actual evidence supports a conclusion that the bulk of the 9 players Dohrman made allegations against didn't trade memorabilia for tattoos. It was a flimsy allegation made flimsier by the actual facts. As I said, those assertions have been disproven with a reasonable degree of certainty.

If I'm missing actual facts other than his source, please feel free to submit. I'm happy to reconsider my conclusion.

[iam416]

But I do think that OSU will get a one year bowl ban because of the negative PR associated with the Tat 5 being allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl.

Again, I don't understand why this should matter to the NCAA. Ohio State reported what it knew to the NCAA in December and then again in February. The NCAA signed off on the Sugar Bowl thing. Shit, there's every reason to think they would have signed off on the Sugar Bowl thing even if they knew that Tressel didn't report the Cicero e-mails. Tressel, of course, would have been out of the game, but that doesn't change anything with respect to the players.

What's clear to me is that the the Sugar Bowl, Ohio State's press conference, they're failure to fire Coach Tressel in January when they learned of it and other PR debacles are not NCAA violations.

But, maybe you're right. We shall see. Regardless, it's not going to be a punishment with long-lasting effect, IMO -- well, except for losing Coach Tressel.