M-Borg vs. THE Flavortown U Thread, Orig. by Buckeye Paul, absconded w/by talent.

[THE_WIZARD_]

So...is HCRD!!!!!!! officially on second base now?

[lineygoblue]

So...is HCRD!!!!!!! officially on second base now?

No. He's still a fine coach.

But this is where he starts to earn that paycheck. Or not.

He was handed a program absolutely saturated with talent. He's got to get the same results as Nick would, or he's considered a failure. The bar is high with that much talent. I'd imagine that there are a lot of Bama fans that are grumbling about 2 losses this year. Fans are going to expect championships (conference and national) when the roster is loaded with that much talent.

[THE_WIZARD_]

sigh

I remember when a 2 loss season in Lincoln was catastrophic...

[iam416]

No. He's still a fine coach.

But this is where he starts to earn that paycheck. Or not.

He was handed a program absolutely saturated with talent. He's got to get the same results as Nick would, or he's considered a failure. The bar is high with that much talent. I'd imagine that there are a lot of Bama fans that are grumbling about 2 losses this year. Fans are going to expect championships (conference and national) when the roster is loaded with that much talent.

Well, I mean, the 2019 team was the best Ohio State team I've seen. So, yeah. But, he also had to deal with a down recruiting class during the transition that showed up in 2021. And getting talent into the program isn't his problem. His problem is maxmizing the talent. Or at least coming close to it. Right now he is sort of getting "middling" results. 12-1 with a Rose Bowl win (assuming they can somehow pull of a win again). I mean, that's not bad, but it's also not great.

It's a really, really hard job. Any job is really, really hard when 12-1 and a Rose Bowl win are meh. But, that's what he signed up for. That's the gig.

[iam416]

And as I said, a lot of this will change when they go to 12 for the CFP. I have almost no doubt CRD will get Ohio State into the CFP almost every year. And then the season is measured by how you do in that. I mean, it'll still be measured by beating M and winning the B10. But, when it's 12, you're really going to be measuring yourself by how you do in the playoff. It's not going to be as far gone down that road as CBB -- where it's almost entirely about tournament performance. But it'll be closer to that. I don't like it. I like it at 4. I like having to win the B10. But, the new reality is coming and things will change considerably.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Well, I mean, the 2019 team was the best Ohio State team I've seen. So, yeah. But, he also had to deal with a down recruiting class during the transition that showed up in 2021. And getting talent into the program isn't his problem. His problem is maxmizing the talent. Or at least coming close to it. Right now he is sort of getting "middling" results. 12-1 with a Rose Bowl win (assuming they can somehow pull of a win again). I mean, that's not bad, but it's also not great.

It's a really, really hard job. Any job is really, really hard when 12-1 and a Rose Bowl win are meh. But, that's what he signed up for. That's the gig.

Frank Solich says "hold my beer"

[Hannibal]

The pain of Buckeye fans gives me strength.

Yes.

Suffer.

fd1e7467-e08e-41e3-9d09-e7dde6d5b082-SadOSUfans.jpg

[Tom W]

Are those pansies CRYING?

WTF Get a life, asshats..

[THE_WIZARD_]

cruel

I like it.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Appreciate talent coming to our forum and posting how he saw the loss to M from an osu fan's perspective. I know that my perspective of M's win and osu's loss is biased. I actually think talent's points are well taken and show a degree of neutrality that I wouldn't expect but this his law training, I have no doubt.

From 10K, There is no reason whatsoever that, given the sheer talent disparities between the two teams, osu should not have lost to M, injuries not withstanding. Frankly I believe that to be the case in both B2B losses. I can't argue with talent's assessment that crd isn't optimizing that talent. It seems to me then that JH is doing that with less talent and getting better on field results. That takes care of that aspect of the loss. Pretty straight forward. Is that a critical doomsday, permanent failure - as in it's crd's ceiling - on CRD's part? We don't know. I tend to doubt that it is

I can't speak to the chemistry of osu's coaching staff and how they work together to fashion victories but there were examples of things breaking down, in game, in that department. I could list all of them but we all saw the final score and that is the result of those break downs. I have no doubt that osu's coaching staff and players believed they had a winning game plan and it was developed and practiced over months, not days. But, based on the final outcome, it wasn't good enough. It was downright bad.

Two breakdowns worth mentioning would seem to me to be Jim Knowles' failure to adjust coverages after Weiss/Moore burned it on both pass and run plays most notably in the second half. Clearly, we don't know if he tried. He may have but it didn't show on the field. We're players confused? That's on the coaching staff. The other was coaching up stroud who's reads appeared to decay in the 4th, he panicked and ended up failing to lead a comeback turning the ball over in that failed process. That he may have been unprepared for what Minter was going to do is, again on the coaches.

In contrast, M appeared to know exactly what to do if osu doubled down on stopping the run which they did. Weiss/Moore saw it, communicated it to the players and they executed. The OL knew what to do, RBs knew what to do, receivers knew what to do and McCarthy knew where to go with the ball - run or pass. Harbaugh has great skills in fashioning a run game - manball if you will - but his game is more that that and I don't agree that it's a black and white contest at the elite level between manball and high efficiency passing. There has to be a blend where the two parts of the game compliment each other ...... that is where M is exceling and IMO, is elite and can play with teams already characterized as being at that level, talent advantage or not.

Yes, high leverage big plays were critical to the win but M made them and osu didn't - those are the results of in game adjustments by the coaches communicated to the players as well as the result of scheming a complimentary run and pass attack that was highly efficient with their success dependent, during game prep, on correctly identifying osu's tendencies and developing plays to exploit them then making the right call at the right time with the players executing. Boom.

Right now, I think M can compete with UGA based on what we've seen M do in the last two seasons. I'm not saying they can win the National Championship but 2022/23 won't be like 2021/22 v. UGA if both teams make it to SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles on January 9th.

[Hannibal]

Yes, high leverage big plays were critical to the win but M made them and osu didn't - those are the results of in game adjustments by the coaches communicated to the players as well as the result of scheming a complimentary run and pass attack that was highly efficient with their success dependent, during game prep, on correctly identifying osu's tendencies and developing plays to exploit them then making the right call at the right time with the players executing. Boom..

The bolded sentence is what OSU did repeatedly during 15-1. It's nice to have a reversal of that for once. I mean -- 2005: 21-12 becomes 25-21 thanks to late game heroics by Troy Smith. 2006: OSU has an answer every time we score. 2013 -- failed 2 point conversion for Michigan. 2016 -- a pick six thrown by Speight. 2017 -- John O'Korn did John O'Korn stuff. Lots of uncompetitive games in that Dark Age, but some big time blown opportunities too.

Also -- AARRGH Fuck Troy Smith.

[iam416]

Knowles is, sadly, akin to Don Brown in that he wants to be very aggressive and force negative plays. He's ok with giving up a big play as the cost of that approach. It's the opposite of Tressel and then Fickell and at least different from what UFM did. So, I'm ok with the approach IN THEORY. Here's where I have issues.

• It absolutely has to be down and distant dependent. On 3rd and short, sure. Sell out. Try to get zero or negative play and get off the field. On third and long? Well, I mean, it seems like you should be able to keep the ball in front of you.
• Ohio State's secondary is ok in coverage and not particularly good at tackling. So, you're leaving those players on islands.
• Againstt a scrambling QB, you're going to lose contain and give up plays.
• You're not challenging the offense with any sort of variance -- or not enough.

The first two of these points were evident on M's first TD -- that got them back into a game they were really struggling with. It's 3rd and 8. JJ has looked like trash -- well, like JJ. Make him make a throw into coverage. They bring the house -- the HOUSE -- and leave their CB on an island. Easy 8 yard out, missed tackle. Tie game. After moving the ball up and down the field and holding M to 3.8 yards per play to that point, it's tied. That's a completely unnecessary risk.

It third point played into M's key TD to go from 24-20 to 31-20 (after the fake punt issue). On that drive near the goal-line, McCarthy scrambled to avoid a sack and keep the drive alive at 3rd and 13 or something (great play by him to live to fight another day), but then on third down they bring pressure again, the CB plays it all wrong -- and somehow a M WR gets behind him and he ends up getting a totally stupid, unnecessary (and, IMO, marginal) DPI. 4-point play.

I'm also mulling over the fact that CRD has never been a HC before. I think, at some point in time, you can't call plays and be a HC effecitvely. I still need to think about that some more, but I think that's true. I also think he's learning this role on the job and one of the two or three most high pressue, demanding places in the sport.

Anyway, if I rewatched the first half I would just end up shaking my head at exactly how the fuck it was only 20-17. And if I rewatched the 2nd half I'd end up infuriated at how fucking stupid they played. Honestly -- they had a net 60 yard, drive-destroying penalty. LOL. Part of me would definitely say everything that could go wrong did go wrong for OSU. They probably made one play the whole game (MH touchdown). But even MH dropped a pass -- MH! His first drop of the season. Egbuka had an egregious drop on a screen. Stover had a drop or two. So, part of me would be inclined to go in that direction, but I've watched this team the entire season. Everything I've said about them -- well, almost everything, has been either right or very much in the vicinity of right. So these fuckups aren't isolated. That's the problem.

That's why I'm pretty sure CRD can't win a national title, but I should probably even temper that a bit. If I take time to dig deep for perspective I can look at last year, as mentioned. Georgia got house by Alabama. HOUSED. They were NOT SEC champs. That's the one game in a vacuum look. The longer "it takes time" look -- I mean, I could look at Kirby or, let's be honest, HARBAUGH!!!! But,CRD is way more like Kirby in that he's a straight coordinator first-time HC. And it took Kirby some time. Yeah, he made the NCG in his 2nd season, but even that year involved getting his teeth kicked in by Auburn (and then beating the shit out of Auburn). In fact, I think he's had bad losses in almost every year except this year. So, it's perspective. It's not comforting. But it at least keeps me off the imbecilic "FIRE RYAN DAY" threads on OSU forums or, even worse, "Do we even want CJ back?" threads (seriously).

Finally -- it is interesting. Georgia loses to Alabama 41-24 and then drills them for the title. They lost 40-17 to Auburn and then beat them 28-7. If Ohio State and M played again, I couldn't imagine the line being more than 3 either way. Despite the final in Columbus.

Anyway, Jeff. I appreciate your comments and thoughts. Always have. Also, my brother and I were in no mood to stick around after the game, so we left before Doug returned. Please give him my congrats. He's always an absolute pleasure to talk to.

[Hannibal]

We pissed away a couple of drives before we figured out that we had to put Donovan Edwards out there every down. I hope that we have some talent coming in at that position. CJ Stokes does not have the "it" factor and Edwards will be gone after next year. But maybe Hart can work another miracle like he did with Haskins.

[iam416]

Right, you still had a good RB option. Heh. Not as good as rotating Corum and Edwards, but way better than having neither.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I'm also mulling over the fact that CRD has never been a HC before. I think, at some point in time, you can't call plays and be a HC effecitvely. I still need to think about that some more, but I think that's true. I also think he's learning this role on the job and one of the two or three most high pressure, demanding places in the sport.

I am particularly in agreement with the bolded portion of your statement, especially in high pressure games. It's why I posted I don't think Minter is a good HC candidate .... yet. After some seasoning he may be but a HC has to be a CEO not a coordinator. They have to see to it in pre-game prep and during the game that their strategy gets implemented by tactics and it is the role of the coordinators to develop and adjust those in game to achieve a win.

There are a lot of similarities to military commanders and their subordinate officers in high pressure battle-field combat situations. You want to see success v. failure in that department? Look at the Ukrainians v. the dumb fucking Russians. I'm going to write a synopsis of some of that in the Miscellaneous Thread - I k now you will all read it!