Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[iam416]

I should also note that it's a 371 case because no one was actually deceived. No one of import actually bought any of this shit. The election was certified. So, it's a conspiray to defraud because absolutely nothing came of the fraud (and if you say the Jan 6 riots, you fundamentally misundertand the charge).

I would think that under this standard, the City of Atlanta or businesses in Atlanta would have fraud claims against The Chairman for openly lying about Georiga voting laws and calling them "Jim Eagle" and "Jim Crow on Steriods" -- statements that lead to actualy percuniary loss.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Well it's a fraud case. There is no underlying offense against the US -- I mean, if there was it would have been alleged and he would have been indicted on it. So, it's a conspiracy to defraud the United States. Defraud, in this context, can mean prevent governmental operation. But, as mentioned, the fraud requires some sort of representation to defraud. I can tell any lie I want, but it only becomes fraud if and when I tell that lie to someone with the intent that they rely on that representation. As far as I can tell, this has always been about representations to the government. You basically lied to some agency or some official in the federal government. This is now, I think, being stretched to include any false statement that gets in the way of government operation.

Look, if you're not persuaded by an indictment then it's an awful an indictment. It SHOULD persuade you especially if you don't really think about the law.

I could be entirely wrong. I don't think I am, but hey -- it's happened before and it'll happen again.

Wasn't the entire purpose of the fake electors scheme to postpone, delay, and interefere with the Jan 6th certification and push it to a later date? Fake electors from five states made false representations to the National Archives, Pence's office, and possibly Congress too that they were the only true slate of electors. The folks in PA and NM were more careful to say they were merely "alternates".

Pretty sure there's numerous emails and phone calls between people like Eastman and Rudy begging Republican Senators to somehow get the certification cancelled and kicked don the road. This was also the purpose of the Pence pressure plan. Multiple pathways with the same goal: the vote cannot be allowed to be certified on Jan 6th.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Free speech is only for Progs....

[Dr. Strangelove]

"Attempted murder, now honestly what is that? Can you get a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?"

[THE_WIZARD_]

I wish you would attempt to STFU...AND be successful at it...

[THE_WIZARD_]

The Hunter plea deal was even dirtier than we first thought...JFC...

[Dr. Strangelove]

Free speech is only for Progs....

Wiz uses the "free speech" defense when he lies on his taxes.

[THE_WIZARD_]

You mean my accountant uses free speech...get it right...dumbass.

[iam416]

Wasn't the entire purpose of the fake electors scheme to postpone, delay, and interefere with the Jan 6th certification and push it to a later date? Fake electors from five states made false representations to the National Archives, Pence's office, and possibly Congress too that they were the only true slate of electors. The folks in PA and NM were more careful to say they were merely "alternates".

Pretty sure there's numerous emails and phone calls between people like Eastman and Rudy begging Republican Senators to somehow get the certification cancelled and kicked don the road. This was also the purpose of the Pence pressure plan. Multiple pathways with the same goal: the vote cannot be allowed to be certified on Jan 6th.

That's the theory. For sure.

I don't see any real brake check to it. It's a theory that alleges a fraud no believed and lies that were absolutely verifiable. No one was getting deceived. It's not fraud or deception in any of the traditional senses. IMO, it greatly expands the reach of 371. It's not that you can't technically squeeze it into 371 -- it's that it is, IMO, expanding 371 to criminalize something you don't like. That was and is the point of the "Trump Exception" comment.

[Jeff Buchanan]

WRT to this:

Look, if you're not persuaded by an indictment then it's an awful an indictment. It SHOULD persuade you especially if you don't really think about the law.

I think you make a good point about being "persuaded" without thinking about "the law'." I'm persuaded but it may be that being persuaded isn't enough to find that Trump committed a crime under the law (371).

You've raised issues of the law and how it's interpreted and applied in this specific indictment - e.g., "expanding the reach of 371" which leads to your statement that it's an example of expanding the reach of 371 to something you don't like. It's an interesting argument that isn't frivolous, IMO.

[iam416]

If one of my arguments hits the non-frivolous threshold, then it's been a good day.

[Mike]

The thing I read in the indictment that doesn't make sense to me...Smith references the 1/6 riot...yet he did not file charges for the riot to Trump...the riot should be irrelevant to the process...but he stuck that in there...is he going to add charges later?

Yes, 100%.

[iam416]

The NRO has also published a piece disagreeing with the Editors saying, yeah, this is a good indictment. Which I commend.

[Hannibal]

I made a post earlier today about the competency crisis.

Speak of the devil...

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[THE_WIZARD_]

That bathroom break is really gonna be costly...