Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Dr. Strangelove]

With 5-10% of precincts still uncounted, so Northam's numbers aren't final

Hillary 2016: 1,981,473 votes (49.75%, +5.32)
Northam 2017: 1,240,961 votes (53.66%, +8.5)

McAuliffe 2013: 1,069,859 votes (47.75%, +2.52)
Northam 2017: 1,240,961 votes (53.66%, +8.5)

Obama 2012: 1,971,820 votes (51.16%, +3.8 )
Northam 2017: 1,240,961 votes (53.66%, +8.5)

Obama 2008: 1,959,532 votes (52.63%, +6.3)
Northam 2017: 1,240,961 votes (53.66%, +8.5)

[Jeff Buchanan]

I will argue the Constitution all day, Buchanan. If you don't like it there is a process to remedy that.

Fine, let's get on with that process then. IMO, the 2nd Amendment, in the case of the right to bear arms, is being wildly misinterpreted for the present day circumstances.

I don't know the case law. Accordingly I should probably STFU.

Whatever.

For my tastes, the case law, if it exists, that supports the unrestricted production and purchase of the kinds of weapons, ammunition and magazines I'm talking about here is fucked up.

Change it.

[iam416]

My apologies, Buchanan. The process I was referring to was the process to remedy the 2nd Amendment. If you don't like the plain language of the Constitution our founders provided us all a remedy. It does not involve ignoring the plain language of the Constitution.

[Dr. Strangelove]

[ame]https://twitter.com/RonBrownstein/status/928077703902724096[/ame]

[ame]https://twitter.com/RonBrownstein/status/928079026547077122[/ame]

[iam416]

Uh oh, DSL, Issue 2 gets swamped in Ohio. I'm sure you're crushed. Unfortunately Issue 1 passed. What can you do when they fly in Kelsey Grammer to pimp for it.

My standard "fuck you, do it through the legislative process NO vote" was cast on both occasions.

All that aside, the issue that is of most concern to me is, of course, a local issue. Our school district wants to build a shit-ton of new schools. They're asking for a staggering $143M, which will mean a very real $1000 tax increase for me. Very torn on it. Usually I like to vote down the first ask and make them come back for it. This time I inexplicably voted yes. And my kids will be basically be out of school by the time their done. Feeling dirty.

[Jeff Buchanan]

My apologies, Buchanan. The process I was referring to was the process to remedy the 2nd Amendment. If you don't like the plain language of the Constitution our founders provided us all a remedy. It does not involve ignoring the plain language of the Constitution.

Well, I think we are getting into the fine points of the law or to what extent the courts have interpreted the 2nd Amendment to allow for the kinds of things we are talking about here - the unrestricted production and purchase of weapons, ammunition and magazine capable of doing the kinds of thins this fucktard Kelley just did, among others.

I'm not at all qualified to debate such things.

But common sense tells me if we can restrict the supply side of such lethal devices, make them unlawful to produce or purchase, we can put a dent in the occurrence rate of these recent highly lethal shootings.

[iam416]

But common sense tells me if we can restrict the supply side of such lethal devices, make them unlawful to produce or purchase, we can put a dent in the occurrence rate of these recent high viability shootings.

Yeah, that may be true. I could point to the complete and total failure of the War on Drugs as a counterpoint, but there are enough differences between drugs and guns to make that potentially apples to oranges. Then again, it ain't no easy thing to make heroin or fetanyl or carfentanil. It's obviously easier to smuggle in and distribute.

All that aside, however, you still have to deal with the Constitutional obstacle that other items aren't confronted with.

[iam416]

DSL:

DJT is gold for the Ds. Right now the best either party has to offer is that it's not the other, and that message resonates way more with Ds these days. I said when that nitwit got elected that he was going to fuck up my own personal shit, which depends, in part, on continued R domination of Ohio.

If HRC had won the Rs would have in Ohio won in 2018 by 30 points statewide. Now they may lose.

[Jeff Buchanan]

....I could point to the complete and total failure of the War on Drugs as a counterpoint, but there are enough differences between drugs and guns to make that potentially apples to oranges. Then again, it ain't no easy thing to make heroin or fetanyl or carfentanil. It's obviously easier to smuggle in and distribute.

All that aside, however, you still have to deal with the Constitutional obstacle that other items aren't confronted with.

Good point on the War on Drugs but you acknowledge apples to oranges. This is, IMO, correct.

Constitutional Obstacles? Not sure what you mean here. If I read the second amendment correctly it does not, in it's original context, give the right to individuals to bear arms. I am aware of District of Columbia v. Heller, decided in 2008, the Supreme Court embraced the individual-rights view of the Second Amendment.

I'm not sure this decision (Scalia wrote the majority opinion) was not political and subject to reversal should grounds for it appear. IMO, we have grounds..... insure the domestic tranquility by ending the idiocy of our current approach to gun control.

[iam416]

You and I fundamentally disagree on what "shall not abridge the right to..." means.

That's where we part ways and, TBH, there isn't much point and discussing that point further.

Other elements of the issue are, at least, potentially worth discussing.

[Jeff Buchanan]

You and I fundamentally disagree on what "shall not abridge the right to..." means.

That's where we part ways and, TBH, there isn't much point and discussing that point further.

Other elements of the issue are, at least, potentially worth discussing.

Fair enough ......

So if I concede your understanding of "shall not abridge the right to ......" does this mean my common sense approach to gun control, as austere as it may be, makes no sense or does it?

[Dr. Strangelove]

DSL:

DJT is gold for the Ds. Right now the best either party has to offer is that it's not the other, and that message resonates way more with Ds these days. I said when that nitwit got elected that he was going to fuck up my own personal shit, which depends, in part, on continued R domination of Ohio.

If HRC had won the Rs would have in Ohio in 2018 by 30 points statewide. Now they may lose.

Yeah it turns out (shocker) that Trump's extremely low popularity may impact voter turnout and Republican performance!

Something else i saw noted: minority votes (as a %) did NOT drop off today as they usually do in off-year elections.

Bannon and Trump are running away from Gillespie hard and insisting that it was only this close because they got involved. But I actually looked and you have to go back to 1985 to find a Democratic candidate for President or Governor of Virginia who did better than Northam today. If Bannon wants to take credit for it being so 'close', have at it, bud.

BTW, do people recall the local tv reporter who was killed on live tv by a psycho a couple years ago? Her fiancee won his race for the Virginia House tonight (as a Dem)

[Ghengis Jon]

Jeff yours is a supply side solution, not problem. I see the issue as a demand side problem. Like drugs, if demand goes away so does supply. And thats cultural. Look at us today. A large segment of the population looks at prison (and the deeds that get you there) as a rite of passage or a way of gaining 'cred'. The internet has encouraged/fostered/birthed rigid opinionated intolerance to a screeching level we didn't see when we were younger. Population levels have swelled to the point where one can commit horrific crime and then melt into the background giving evil doers a sense of invulnerability. Its oxymoronic, but our society is creating a society of sociopaths.

I've known you for many years now Jeff. If I lived next door to you, and you had a collection of class III firearms that rivaled Charlton Heston's collection, it wouldn't bother me in the least. You have a sense of right and wrong, law and order, and live by that upbringing. The fact you could suppress a small scale insurrection is irrelevant. It is your attitude and outlook that is the critical factor. Not the firepower you possess.

My solution would be rather extreme, would take a while to take effect and simply shifts the problem elsewhere. I would make American citizenship an honor and the right to live here a priviledge.

Get convicted of a serious violent crime, lose your citizenship and be exiled. Dump them into Syria, put them ashore in Somalia, air drop them into North Korea. Whatever. You're on your own asshole. Don't come back. Cut off their noses or something to make them easily identifiable.

It'd take a while, but the bad would be thinned out. It would become easier to identify those on the brink of insanity and you wouldn't have to worry about all the predators we have today.

Any exile that returns to the US would be declared 'outlaw', in the early medieval sense. You are 'outside of the law' and may be killed by any person at any time without the necessity of a reason. Or you could send them to Ohio. Whichever is a more agonizing death.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Oh my. Looks like Bannon and Trump have to add another to the Enemies List (this one's a former Navy Seal)

[ame]https://twitter.com/alexburnsNYT/status/928092400639193088[/ame]

[iam416]

Fair enough ......

So if I concede your understanding of "shall not abridge the right to ......" does this mean my common sense approach to gun control, as austere as it may be, makes no sense or does it?

Well, I mean, it makes sense, at least superficially. But so do a lot of policies that might bump up against Constitutional limits. The question is how seriously you take the Constitution and the Constitutional process. Constitutionally, no Amendment is absolute. We have, e.g., examples of speech that isn't protected by the First Amendment. So, there's room to carve out some thing -- truly automatic weapons, e.g. However, I think the leeway ends somewhere around there.

To the macro policy question, I believe that as the number of guns has increased the number of murders in the US has decreased.