Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[froot loops]

Government programs hard to take away because people come to rely on them and businesses are built up around the programs. Same thing goes for true tax reform. People like to game the system of tax deductions, the housing system is built on that. Easy to say what should be eliminated but very hard to do.

Sure you can always argue some supply side nonsense and just do tax cuts without regard to deficits. It is the simplest thing to do, it isn't true tax reform. True tax reform takes bipartisan give and take, people like to invoke Ronald Reagan as a hero on tax reform, they forget he raised taxes as well. His tax reform bill in 86 was a bipartisan effort.

[SeattleLionsFan]

I'm surprised no one mentioned equalizing the treatment of income derived from labor and income derived from capital or other passive sources.

I think someone mentioned getting rid of the charity deduction, but there is very little chance the religious right would ever allow that to happen. Churches make too much money.

[THE_WIZARD_]

15% flat tax. Eliminate all deductions. Tax lawyers and half of all accountants out of work. The world needs ditch diggers too...in the words of Judge Smails...

[Wild Hoss]

Increase the Tractor Tax 1,000.000%.

Tax the air used by attorneys.

[THE_WIZARD_]

No.

Yes.

shaddup.

[Da Geezer]

thanks for the reply hack.

Just for reference:https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-...nd-world-2016/

US corporate rate is third highest in the world behind only UAE and Puerto Rico.

Any discussion of comparative tax rates, corporate or individual, needs to be informed by the fact that most developed countries have a VAT in addition to an income tax. It always interests me that many of the socialist countries in Europe rely on what is arguably the most regressive tax there is (the equivalent of a national sales tax).

[Da Geezer]

15% flat tax. Eliminate all deductions. Tax lawyers and half of all accountants out of work.

This is where I come out also. Eliminate ALL deductions in one fell swoop, and shame anyone who bitches about it. This eliminates the method by which the government is used to benefit some at the expense of others. One would hope that, in addition to lawyers and accountants, lobbyists, non-profits, and bureaucrats in the IRS and other agencies would be out of work.

Most recent estimates of the cost of "voluntary" compliance with the IRS code are around $300 Billion.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Never see a true flat tax happening due to the lobbyists. Too many hands in the tax cookie jar.

[Da Geezer]

Sure you can always argue some supply side nonsense and just do tax cuts without regard to deficits. It is the simplest thing to do, it isn't true tax reform. True tax reform takes bipartisan give and take, people like to invoke Ronald Reagan as a hero on tax reform, they forget he raised taxes as well. His tax reform bill in 86 was a bipartisan effort.

It was bipartisan. But, in 1986, there were the blue-dog Democrats in the House. They were around 40 representatives who were conservative, and yet Democrat.

There is no basic macroeconomic difference between a tax cut and a cut in the Fed Funds rate to near zero. There is also no basic macroeconomic difference between printing $ 10 Trillion in additional money and a tax cut.

The difference comes in who is benefitted by fiscal or monetary policy. The very rich and the very poor are the beneficiaries of low-interest rates and deficit spending. Tax cuts help the working class proportionately more than monetary policy.

[Da Geezer]

I think someone mentioned getting rid of the charity deduction, but there is very little chance the religious right would ever allow that to happen. Churches make too much money.

Well, SLF, I think you would consider me on the "religious right" and I have been the most consistent supporter of getting rid of "charitable" deductions on this forum.

To me, government support for a church, or for a 501(C)(3-4), has two deleterious effects.

First, it allows government to dictate what can be said in church. The reason black churches are so active politically is that their parishioners do not donate enough to give the government a means of control. Contrast that with Catholics or Presbyterians (broad brush I know). BTW, this is another argument in favor of a broad-based tax of 15%--it makes donations worth less in tax write-offs.

Second, there is the harm done to the donor. Giving is ideally a joy for the giver, but there is always a question now of the motivation of the donor. If you give 10% to charity, the government now subsidizes 4% of that. Is that really how we want charity to look?

[hack]

Great point about capital gains. Glad we all agree we should put the accountants out of business. At least there's that.

Overall, I'm for a truly competitive rate. Everyone's going to have their own sense of fair and just, but moving from what ought to be to what is/would be means IMO actual competition. That means starting with the question "how much tax can we collect without discouraging investment?" Until that question is asked, tax reform will be essentially a favor to corporate payers. There's no way to answer without doing a global comparison and knowing how you stand vis-a-vis the other places to which divert itself. The headline tax rate isn't the way, though, because the accountants make their living averaging it down.

[hack]

US corporate rate is third highest in the world behind only UAE and Puerto Rico.


The only corporate tax paid in the UAE is by foreign oil companies and banks. Everyone else is untaxed. https://www.pwc.com/m1/en/tax/docume...-guide-uae.pdf.

Introducing a VAT was going to be the next big step, but all the GCC countries would need to do it in step, or else everyone would base in the one that doesn't implement it, since it's an economic bloc with regional free-trade pacts, etc. I wonder if that still happens now that there's the spat amongst them.

[Da Geezer]

I think it is fair to say that UAE and Puerto Rico are abnormal situations. That leaves the US with the highest corporate rate in the world. I expect the Rs to favor a corporate cut to about 25% which will do zero good for any balance of payments deficit. The Rs in the Senate are basically just cheap Democrats.

A cut to 15% would have a great deal of impact though. Most studies show that about half of the dollars saved by the corporation find their way down to the employees in wages, benefits, or job security. The other half increases profits which benefits stockholders. Corporations that pay virtually no tax will not benefit from a cut in rates, and that is good.

[hack]

If it was the highest corporate rate in the world you'd have to wonder why collection as a percentage of economic activity is abnormally low. Just saying it's the highest corporate rate isn't capturing nearly enough of the actual story.

[crashcourse]

http://nypost.com/2017/07/28/couple-caught-in-financial-spiral-jump-to-their-deaths/

have to wonder what hell they were going through to do this