Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Jeff Buchanan]

Trying to keep up here .........

One POV posted here was that Bernie Sander's is a socialist who advocates for huge government spending and programs.

Next POV - Is Bernie a Socialist depends on how one defines a socialism.

Next POV - Sander's is like socialists in the Scandinavia.

Next POV - Scandinavia (the Nordic Model) is NOT Socialism.

Next POV - So, Trump is a socialist because he spends $54b on defense. (WTF?)

Next POV - Opponents of Sanders want to characterize him and his supporters as Bolsheviks

Next POV - (reiterated) Sanders is closer to socialism than standard D on the continuum.

For those of you in the discussion, how is that not understood? Pretty clear to me how the original discussion point started when I posted in response to Froot's assertion that Sanders is like socialists in the Scandanavian countries that he's not at all like that. He's pretty much like talent stated he is. Can other's offer arguments that he is not?

[Whitley]

The thing of it is that the vast majority of Sen. Sanders positions are really popular. And I will submit that being called a socialist does not have the impact that once did.

[iam416]

IMO, this is a terrifyingly awful opinion piece: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/o...f=opinion&_r=0

I think it diverges, significantly, from the NYT own thoughts on the matter, and I'm heartened by the comments section. Good work by NYT publishing it, I think, and better work by readers for mostly rejecting it. Huzzah.

[iam416]

The thing of it is that the vast majority of Sen. Sanders positions are really popular. And I will submit that being called a socialist does not have the impact that once did.

Exactly! Young people identify more favorably with socialism than they do with capitalism (at least in a relatively recent poll). And a number of Sanders policies ARE popular.

[froot loops]

Trying to keep up here .........


Next POV - Sander's is like socialists in the Scandinavia.

False BS. I said he was embracing the term as he had done many times and if the term was being redefined it was in part because of his words. I certainly didn't say he was is like socialists in Scandinavian countries. There these thing called quotes and I used them. I gave no indication on my opinion of the Scandinavian countries. I don't have any expertise in those governments to give any opinion, it's nice that you posted some link but I'm not sure if it was pertinent to my post at all.

But my observation of the word as a pejorative still stands and is correct.

[Wild Hoss]

Chippy up in here today...maybe we need to pass around some medical mary. Or some bran.

[Da Geezer]

Talent's explanation about Sanders is 100% valid. Bernie is a socialist.

The only real difference between Socialism and Communism is that Communism believes in the violent overthrow of existing economic structures in order to establish a Socialist economy. Socialists, like Sanders, do not advocate violence. That is where the phrase "democratic socialism" comes from.

Socialism does not require nationalization of the means of production in order to be considered socialism. The ultimate test is who controls the use of a given productive asset. For example, if the federal government can regulate a farmer's land as to what he can grow, what inputs are allowed, how much he can grow, what price he is paid, and then tax him on any "profit", the government controls the land.

Also, fascism is an inexact word. Look it up and then decide what it means if you can. In the old days, it meant private ownership of productive assets thoroughly overseen and subservient to a nationalist government. Once again, control is the key, not the actual title to the productive asset. That is why "statism" is a far more accurate word to describe both socialism and fascism. The Nazis were National Socialists. Hitler and Stalin controlled their countries in the same way, and to try to draw a distinction is going down the proverbial rabbit hole.

I might also add that the popularity of "anti-capitalism" on campus is indisputable. It is only when one wants to replace capitalism with something else that the debate becomes real. You can watch the inevitable result of true Socialism by watching Venezuela. Inevitable.

[hack]

Note the difference in who owns oil deposits in Norway and who exploits them. Labels are stupid, whether Sanders wants to embrace them or not. It's a massive difference in approach in what is considered commercial activity and non-commercial. That story also goes right to the core of the idea that the private sector is more efficient.

[Jeff Buchanan]

......... And a number of Sanders policies ARE popular.

....... and I have a sense that you might have ended and nonetheless not remotely achievable or supportable.

BTW, great NYT piece. I thought the closing remark, "We should thank the student protesters (Snowflakes), the activists in Black Lives Matter and other "overly sensitive" souls for keeping watch over the soul of our Republic.

Powerful thought.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Two of the best posts in this recent adventure into Bernie Sanders the "Socialist."

Thank you Geezer and Hack.

[entropy]

Trying to keep up here .........

One POV posted here was that Bernie Sander's is a socialist who advocates for huge government spending and programs.

Next POV - Is Bernie a Socialist depends on how one defines a socialism.

Next POV - Sander's is like socialists in the Scandinavia.

Next POV - Scandinavia (the Nordic Model) is NOT Socialism.

Next POV - So, Trump is a socialist because he spends $54b on defense. (WTF?)

Next POV - Opponents of Sanders want to characterize him and his supporters as Bolsheviks

Next POV - (reiterated) Sanders is closer to socialism than standard D on the continuum.

For those of you in the discussion, how is that not understood? Pretty clear to me how the original discussion point started when I posted in response to Froot's assertion that Sanders is like socialists in the Scandanavian countries that he's not at all like that. He's pretty much like talent stated he is. Can other's offer arguments that he is not?

I think Talent said Sanders is a communist who hates all Christians..

[Jeff Buchanan]

Trouble maker.

[iam416]

Geezer:

I've been clear in this discussion - Sanders is not technically a socialist. He may call himself one and he may be one as understood in American political terms. But I've only said he's way left on the continuum ... way closer to socialist than traditional D.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I'm pretty sure you implied he and his supporters are Bolsheviks, heh.

[entropy]

and I disagree with Talent's assertion that all Sanders fans/supporters are snowflakes who hate Christmas.