Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[iam416]

If Sanders were only running on Wall Street reform he'd then he'd be very much a D or populist. As it is, he also supports gads of "free" stuff that he can't possibly pay for that very much makes him much more of a socialist than a traditional D.

However you want to define it, I stand by this statement as absolutely 100% correct. Sanders is much more of a socialist than he is traditional D.

What I don't get is why Sanders supporters run from it. As Froot has noted, Sanders has referred to himself as a socialist. His government-spending policies are astronomical. The idea that he is just another "D" is belied by the policies he has put forth.

[hack]

Socialism just isn't that. I think the combination of labels being both powerful and malleable is a big problem in American politics.

[froot loops]

The word is used as a pejorative, Sanders has kind of embraced it, but a lot of the stuff really isn't socialism.

[iam416]

Language changes. There's a litany of words and phrases that have acquired new and different meaning over the years. Some of those words have gone from culturally acceptable to not so much. Others have simply changed meaning.

In the context of American politics socialism is at the end of the spectrum where there is massive government control and spending.

And it's quite clear it has a meaning in American politics. It's quite clear people -- including yourself -- understand what folks say when they put Sanders closer to be a socialist than a D (which I absolutely 100% stand behind).

On the opposite end of things -- non-economic issues and right end of the spectrum -- fascism is acquiring a new meaning.

The question I always have is whether people can understand the label as used. In Sanders' case, I think they get it. He's for huge government spending and programs.

[froot loops]

Yeah whatever man.

[hack]

The federal deficit peaked in 2009. Is anybody really going to argue that George W Bush was the biggest socialist in the history of the country?

[Jeff Buchanan]

Yeah whatever man.

Froot, in the context of the discussion about socialism and as it is generally understood in American politics, I'm not sure I get your dismissiveness.

talent's perception of Bernie Sanders - a proponent of huge government spending and programs - seems to me to be accurate.

The reason I posted the link to the Myth of Scandinavian Socialism is because the Nordic Model of it is not any where close to what my perception of what Sanders is advocating for.

The Scandavian economies are very much free market based. Their social cultures however trend toward costly government programs. I think what sets apart the social and economic circumstances of these economies is that the governments have implemented systems of taxation that pay for social programs more equitably on both the taxation and spending sides.

[iam416]

The federal deficit peaked in 2009. Is anybody really going to argue that George W Bush was the biggest socialist in the history of the country?

Well, not if federal spending has increased by 50% since then. But, whatever. This is heading down the painfully pedantic highway, full speed. I stand entirely behind my statements on Sanders and, for that matter, socialism in American politics.

[CGVT]

Bernie Sanders - a proponent of huge government spending and programs

President Donald Trump proposed a $54 billion increase in defense spending

So I guess this makes Trump a socialist?

[iam416]

The only thing worse than snark is blindingly stupid snark. I think that goes even beyond that. I honestly hope you weren't trying to actually make a point.

[CGVT]

Socialism just isn't that. I think the combination of labels being both powerful and malleable is a big problem in American politics.

Here's your point. ^^^^

Worse than snark?

Condescending Asshole.

Carry on.

[froot loops]

I wouldn't have led with the proposed increase in defense spending as evidence. Much more direct and to the point, Trump supported Marine Le Pen, she is a true socialist. She wants to "temporarily" nationalize the banks.

If you are going to change the definition of socialist in the US to government spending on social programs, that nearly everyone in the US has some sort of belief in socialism since the advent of programs like Social Security and Medicare.

The problem with using it as a pejorative is that not everyone uses it as a definition in the way Jeff Buchanan and talent use it. They are really trying to paint Sanders supporters as some sort of Bolsheviks. They are saying in essence, "You are a communist, I can't understand why you are not embracing it."

So pardon me of I dismiss this trope.

[iam416]

$54B=$19T. They're both socialists! The exact 1:1 comparison: Person A can bench press 1 lb, and person B can bench press 350 lbs. They're both strong! Blindingly stupid.

They are really trying to paint Sanders supporters as some sort of Bolsheviks. They are saying g in essence, "You are a communist, I can't understand why you are not embracing it."

I'm more than capable of speaking for myself, froot, and have done so. Feel free to quote me if you're interested in what I've said or am saying. But I realize you're a massive fan of torching strawmen so I don't think that's in the offing.

If you are going to change the definition of socialist in the US to government spending on social programs, that nearly everyone in the US has some sort of belief in socialism since the advent of programs like Social Security and Medicare.

If, e.g., you had quoted me you might have actually fallen assbackward into reading something like: Sanders is closer to socialism than standard D on the continuum. You know, acknowledging that everyone does support some level of government spending, but pointing out the seemingly obvious that Sanders supports way more spending than lots of people putting him way closer to one end of the spectrum than, say, Paul Ryan.

[iam416]

Bernie Sanders on Bernie Sanders:

“In Vermont, everybody knows that I am a socialist and that many people in our movement, not all, are socialists. And as often as not — and this is an interesting point that is the honest-to-God truth — what people will say is, ‘I don’t really know what socialism is, but if you’re not a Democrat or a Republican, you’re OK with me.’ That’s true. And I think there has been too much of a reluctance on the part of progressives and radicals to use the word ‘socialism.’”

To me, socialism doesn’t mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living.

I will send him an email with a link to this thread to enlighten him as to why he's such an idiot.

[Da Geezer]

The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism .........

https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of...ian-socialism/

good article. Thanks.