Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[iam416]

And I think we don't have to ask them to assimilate. The first generation won't, but the second generation will do that of its own volition, because the majority of them want to. Because, historically, this has been a more just society. Gotta keep it that way. Soft power.

Yeah, this is the way it goes. To be clearer -- assimilate is a vague word, right. There are degrees. As a general rule, 1st generation folks aren't as assimilated as their children in America. But, they're typically moving in that direction because you don't have much of a choice if you want to have meaningful success here -- as you note. I don't view immigrants to the US as openly hostile to assimilation -- they fit in as best they can and gradually, over the course of 2-3 generations, become fully American.

Also as you note, I think, that's not how it's working in, e.g., Paris for the reasons you explained. So, umm, yeah, I agree.

[Wild Hoss]

People today aren't much aware of it but Germans in America still had lots of German-language schools, German-language newspapers, and German-run banks as late as the early 20th century. WWI killed it all as they feared persecution and wanted to prove their 'Americaness'.

Incidentally, anti-German WWI sentiment gave a boost to the Prohibition movement, as nearly all beer in America at that time was deeply connected to German brewers like Busch, Strohs, Miller, etc.

Yep. One set of my wife’s grandparents were 1st generation immigrants from Germany, and never learned to speak english. Never had to....they were immersed in an imported Germanic culture. Worked as farmers and ranchers, and I dare say were fairly productive.

My MIL never spoke German outside her parents’ home, and still occasionally speaks of the social problems she had starting school without knowing english. Refused to teach it her children....my wife knows more Spanish than German, lol.

Even in my lifetime, you could find storefronts in South Omaha in Italian (Spanish today) and in Central Nebraska, German and Czech. But they made their women cover their ankles, not their faces, so there's that I suppose.

[entropy]

My Dad's grandparents spoke Czech exclusively when they came over in 1890. Growing up, my Dad spoke both Czech and English. In their community, Czech was so common they did not need to aggressively switch to English. and the first generation really never learned. 2nd did enough for interaction with those outside Czech areas. My dad was also the first generation to go to school and when they went to towns like Lincoln, the grandkids did most of the talking. They spoke almost exclusively English when not around grandparents on the farm.

My mom's grandparents also came from Czech in the early 1900's. My mom did not speak Czech at all. Her Grandparents followed your families experience. They quickly adopted the clothes, language, added the American food and actually looked down upon those who still spoke Czech.

When my parents married my mom was very firm that Czech would not be spoken around the house. Actually, for all my cousins on my dad's side of the family, none of us learned Czech and the language really died with my grandparents (though our parents still retain a little bit of it). Sadly, today, knowing a second language is a good thing. 100+ yrs ago, it was actually bad

[iam416]

There were scant social programs and you would starve if you didn't.

Correct.

This is France, but it's becoming a common theme in Europe:

I keep hoping that gender rights and gay rights will assert themselves and shame euro-muslim culture or at least cast a spotlight on the problems. It's some real bullshit.

But, I'm not sure who wins out in the great intersectionality game: islam or women.

[Wild Hoss]

Also as you note, I think, that's not how it's working in, e.g., Paris for the reasons you explained. So, umm, yeah, I agree.

I wonder if the European societies have been effectively quarantined, and subsequently gained population concentration to the point of reaching critical mass where 2nd-gen assimilation isn't necessary? In the American experience, immigrant populations often diffused to some degree, which forces assimilation.

That's wandering into sociology I suppose.

[iam416]

My great-grandparents only spoke Polish and broken English. Couldn't understand much of what they said. But there were in their late 80s and I was 5, and people that old tend to creep out 5-year olds, so I was cool with it. They also cursed the Jews on Friday like good turn of the century Polish Catholics.

The 2nd generation was American and my Dad has more or less discarded most ties outside of a preference for a few remarkably bland Polish dishes.

Of course, in Chicago there are areas where you can still see signs in Polish. Hell, in Columbus there is a formerly white as white can be surburb that is now 15% Asian complete with great little restaurants in shopping plazas with signs in both Japanese and English.

Huzzah for America, I say.

[entropy]

Hoss...

I'd suggest that is true in the US and of our past.. I'd bet areas of isolation where slower to adjust to becoming Americans than those where you were interacting with others consistently. I saw that with my only families history...

[iam416]

In the American experience, immigrant populations often diffused to some degree, which forces assimilation.

Right. I mean there was always land to be had somewhere. So you had the German enclaves in the midwest -- often from the same town or region. The nordic enclaves in teh upper midwest. And while those folks could, more or less, survive in their own culture for awhile, as you note, eventual generations needed to join up full on with society to succeed.

In Europe, it seems like you have no land, no place for any real diaspora. You have limited growth. You have lots of state-provided benefits. And you have EU mandated immigration. There's probably some re-jiggering that needs to be done with equation.

[hack]

This is France, but it's becoming a common theme in Europe:

https://youtu.be/6gZFGpNdH1A

The French are so obnoxious. Yes they have a beautiful language. If they would stop fucking reminding us of that all the time, nobody would push back against that fact. They don't get what America has, in the past -- soft power. Expose people to what your society has to offer, and they will like it and take it, or they will leave. But if you just want to keep them hidden away in their own guest quarters, and trot them out to man the corner stores but to not be very visible otherwise, this is what you get. And from that you start turning people into racists. The Marseilles story is that students go looking for cheap housing and find it in the Muslim district, and then you get the clashes between traditionalists and kids who wanna party. Snowballs from there.

[AlabamAlum]

/Obligatory


[ame]https://youtu.be/K5lYXaVkA0U[/ame]

[SeattleLionsFan]

I keep hoping that gender rights and gay rights will assert themselves and shame euro-muslim culture or at least cast a spotlight on the problems. It's some real bullshit.

But, I'm not sure who wins out in the great intersectionality game: islam or women.

That's an interesting point talent and important. I think it both necessary and true to point out that it is a singular interpretation of Islam, and not endemic to the religion itself.

Fwiw, I find very little difference between cafes not allowing women and men to intermingle because of religious tenets and flower shops refusing to provide flowers to a gay couple getting married. I think it is inappropriate for any public accommodation to refuse service based on their own religious beliefs (no matter flavor they come in). But that's a discussion for another day.

[hack]

Fwiw, I find very little difference between cafes not allowing women and men to intermingle because of religious tenets and flower shops refusing to provide flowers to a gay couple getting married. I think it is inappropriate for any public accommodation to refuse service based on their own religious beliefs (no matter flavor they come in). But that's a discussion for another day.


That is what life is like in many Muslim countries. Women don't go into teahouses. Some women hardly go out, period. I'm sure you'll find that going on in Dearborn, amongst ``Muslim-Americans'', but to a lesser extent than on the outskirts of Paris, where you have Muslims who aren't French Muslims but rather Muslims who are now residing in France. In the suburbs of Toronto there is an entire subdivision of people who are a specific type of Muslim sect, and this is kind of gently controlled by a realtor. IMO the key is that you offer people the chance to become fully-fledged members of your society, and then leave them alone to decide. Even in that on-paper segregated community, which should bother us all, you have the same thing going on essentially. First-generation people who having trouble adjusting, and second-generation people who just wanna be normal Canadians.

In reality we have lots of places that cater only to specific groups and hope not to have to really be explicit about it.

[iam416]

Fwiw, I find very little difference between cafes not allowing women and men to intermingle because of religious tenets and flower shops refusing to provide flowers to a gay couple getting married. I think it is inappropriate for any public accommodation to refuse service based on their own religious beliefs (no matter flavor they come in). But that's a discussion for another day.

I find a world of difference.

[hack]

I keep hoping that gender rights and gay rights will assert themselves and shame euro-muslim culture or at least cast a spotlight on the problems. It's some real bullshit.


People like LePen and Wilders are attracting the support of European gays, by saying they will protect them from harassment by Muslims.

[iam416]

People like LePen and Wilders are attracting the support of European gays, by saying they will protect them from harassment by Muslims

It's bizarro world, but that doesn't surprise me.