Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[hack]

What about a varmint nightclub?

[Wild Hoss]

And over 25 minutes of the 911 exchange in Orlando has still not been released as of this morning.

That there ARE 25 minutes of is epic fail IMO.

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[Mike]

That there ARE 25 minutes of is epic fail IMO.

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Absolutely absurd. The police sure do like to show up looking like they just conquered Berlin tho, don't they? Seems like everytime there is an event like this you see them walking around in EOD suits, driving tanks, all decked out in tactical gear with their ARs. Meanwhile the perp has been dead for 3 hours but the local police is ready to retake Falluja. I'd much prefer they do actual police work instead of playing with their fucking toys.

[hack]

Absolutely absurd. The police sure do like to show up looking like they just conquered Berlin tho, don't they? Seems like everytime there is an event like this you see them walking around in EOD suits, driving tanks, all decked out in tactical gear with their VGs. Meanwhile the perp has been dead for 3 hours but the local police is ready to retake Falluja. I'd much prefer they do actual police work instead of playing with their fucking toys.

FIFY

[Ghengis Jon]

The last thing we need is militarized cops. That perpetuates the police state image, or as some people believe, the reality.

Besides, I'd feel safer at home if Mike lived next door with an M-1 Abrams in his back yard than to have cops with body armor and automatic weapons.

[SeattleLionsFan]

I love the fact that the no fly list is fine to restrict people's freedom of movement, but not to restricting people's freedoms to buy tools to kill people.

The no fly list is a problem yes. Just like all the pantywaists commutes said back then. Of course we needed to break some eggs to protect Murica then. But now? Not so much. The hypocrisy is absolutely astounding.

[The Oracle]

Yeah, due process? It's not like we're locking them up. Just trying to not let them buy a semi automatic gun. Doesn't seem too crazy.

[Da Geezer]

I still don't wee why it is unworkable to inform people before they are put on the list. Then have some show-cause hearing. The notice itself would be a deterrent, and if the list became politicized, then let the press inform the public.

[Wild Hoss]

I still don't wee why it is unworkable to inform people before they are put on the list. Then have some show-cause hearing. The notice itself would be a deterrent, and if the list became politicized, then let the press inform the public.

Just a guess, but I bet the Fibbies don't want to send a notice to suspicious persons they may want to investigate, clearly alerting them that the FBI is onto him/her. If they try to board a plane the jig will be up, but until then they should be in the dark.

[iam416]

I love the fact that the no fly list is fine to restrict people's freedom of movement, but not to restricting people's freedoms to buy tools to kill people.

One of those things is in the Bill of Rights. Like the hilarious - OMG, look at the restrictions on buying Sudafed but not guns!!!! OMG!!!! memes. Show me the Constitutional right to purchase cough medicine. Show me the Constitutional right to board an airplane. I digress.

If the government can unilaterally suspend your Constitutional rights without process, then so be it. It applies across the board. If you're on the terror watch list the government ought to be able to ban whatever speech of yours it wants. If you're on the terror watch list then the government ought to have automatic probable cause for any search. If you're on the terror watch list the government ought to be able to use whatever interrogation techniques it wants if it does question you.

You know that's ludicrous. The fundamental disagreement, of course, is that you don't think the 2nd A is part of the Bill of the Rights or, at least, an equal of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. But don't sit there and act like it's some sort of absurd position to assert that the Govt ought not be able to restrict Constitutional rights unilaterally and without process. You're way smarter than that. The argument is over the importance of the 2nd A.

[SeattleLionsFan]

Are you seriously going to argue that American citizens lack the freedom to move throughout the country? Seriously?

And I agree the no-fly list is a ridiculous infringement on people's rights. The difference is I have thought that since it came to light. I somehow missed the republican outrage about rights at that time. Which leads me to conclude its not the abridgement of rights that they care about. It's the abridgement of one right. The right to carry tools of death. I think it's important to note where the line is drawn. That's all.

[SeattleLionsFan]

For the record, I'm fine with the second amendment. I just like consistency. Rights are freely restricted without process because it keeps us safe. I just think it's important to know where that logic ends.

[iam416]

Are you seriously going to argue that American citizens lack the freedom to move throughout the country? Seriously?

Keep fucking up those strawmen, dude. Quote what I say -- Like I do with you.

The difference is I have thought that since it came to light. I somehow missed the republican outrage about rights at that time

Want me to post the NYT editorial about the evils of the Terror Watch List and the NYT times editorial arguing the TWL should be used to deprive citizens of their 2nd A rights? I can find plenty of progressives/Ds that are just as hypocritical.

But whether or not the Rs (or Ds) are hypocritical has nothing to do with the argument. I stand firmly against using the TWL as a vehicle to deprive one of their Constitutional rights -- and to the extent that infringes upon whatever right to travel "emanates" from the privileges and immunities clause, then so be it.

And my position is based on the TWL as constituted. It could be modified to mollify by concerns, I'm sure. But until then, it ought not deprive US citizens of rights.

FTR, the Senate was unable to get cloture today on a bill to increase surveillance rights of the FBI. They only had 59 votes. My visceral reaction to that is negative as well.

And I agree the no-fly list is a ridiculous infringement on people's rights.

Well, that renders the bulk of this exchange entirely superfluous. I agreed with the NYT editorial in 2014 -- I think it may have been the rare articles I "shared" via facebook or twitter or something. So, hooray me! Looky at how consistent I am!

[Dr. Strangelove]

One of those things is in the Bill of Rights. Like the hilarious - OMG, look at the restrictions on buying Sudafed but not guns!!!! OMG!!!! memes. Show me the Constitutional right to purchase cough medicine. Show me the Constitutional right to board an airplane. I digress.

If the government can unilaterally suspend your Constitutional rights without process, then so be it. It applies across the board. If you're on the terror watch list the government ought to be able to ban whatever speech of yours it wants. If you're on the terror watch list then the government ought to have automatic probable cause for any search. If you're on the terror watch list the government ought to be able to use whatever interrogation techniques it wants if it does question you.

You know that's ludicrous. The fundamental disagreement, of course, is that you don't think the 2nd A is part of the Bill of the Rights or, at least, an equal of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. But don't sit there and act like it's some sort of absurd position to assert that the Govt ought not be able to restrict Constitutional rights unilaterally and without process. You're way smarter than that. The argument is over the importance of the 2nd A.

If the interstate commerce clause can be interpreted to give the fed govt the power to regulate meat or drugs or banking or car emissions, why not guns sales too?

And it's the NRA that regards one particular amendment as being more inviolable than all others. I doubt anyone here is questioning the principle of gun ownership entirely.

But I'm with you on the no-flight list.

[Dr. Strangelove]

And before going any farther, the 'sit-in' today is sort of sad and pathetic. I mean, they don't do one of these against the Patriot Act or to protest a war or anything...but in protest over not using a highly biased, unverifiable, secret, and overall shitty list. That has no due process and is enormously difficult to get oneself removed one on it.