Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Hannibal]

Yeah, IMO that's batshit crazy, but man, I sure hope you're right!

I'm all for replacement if he's going to lose, which is looking increasingly likely. Whoever they replace him with will get slaughtered so it's all the same. Dump him for Cruz or Kasich and then watch Reagan/Mondale in reverse. I'd like to see it actually. Especially Kasich. Try winning the Presidency with the old "aw shucks I'm just the son of a mail carrier" strategy. That nice guy thing has totally worked over the past 24 years. The RINO wing of the party needs to be completely humiliated so that the party can move forward. A bunch of useful idiots and cowards these people are.

A darn shame. There is a strong winning coalition that is there for the taking if anyone with a modicum of political sensibility ever grows a pair. Trump obviously had the balls and the instinct but he can't run a campaign to save his life. Time is running out though. Fast. This could be the last legtimately contested Presidential election of our lifetimes.

[Da Geezer]

Hack posted:

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting. Here's an archive. Which is a commentary on its own.

Hack: I spent some time looking your link, from the innocuously named "Gun Violence Archive". Do you expect me to believe there has not been anyone killed in Chicago by gun violence since April 24, 2016 (to June 19, 2016)? I'm still waiting to hear of one case (other than the one I found) where a mass killing took place in a "gun allowed zone".

[hack]

Do you expect me to believe there has not been anyone killed in Chicago by gun violence since April 24, 2016 (to June 19, 2016)?

I don't think you're reading it right. This wouldn't tell you that. But it does give you scores of places where mass shootings took place in an area where your theoretical scenario could play itself out because guns are allowed. Not gonna hold your hand with it here - you are plenty smart enough to figure that out.

We've gotten to the end point as far as I'm concerned -- there are root causes to be looked at and there are bandaids. The bandaid approach has proven effective in the rest of the world, and here we choose not to apply it. That's it for me. Is where I wanted to go with this.

[drok]

The bandaid approach has proven effective in the rest of the world, and here we choose not to apply it.

I actually don't think that's true. I think the root causes of gun deaths are different in the US compared to the rest of the world - whether that's a result of different drug war situations, cultural differences, etc. But I don't think applying the same rules as everywhere else is going to make the kind of difference everyone wants to see.

[froot loops]

Hannibal is learning the wrong lesson from Trump, it isn't the "RINOs" fault. To win, you need a coalition that expands the possible voting pool. That means courting voters he derisively calls RINOS. It means trying to get Hispanic voters. Basically they need to run the George W. Bush playbook of campaigning and steer clear of the W playbook of governing.

[hack]

But it's not as if the root causes everywhere else are the same too and just those in the US are unique. Each country is going to have its own mix of root causes, all of which ultimately fall into the same umbrella category.

[Da Geezer]

Drok said:

Less easily quantifiable, but I think there's a cultural difference as well. For any outsider, it's very clear that gun culture is very different in the US versus the rest of your peers. How that manifests itself in this debate is very difficult to parse out, but I would suggest it's an amplifier, rather than a cause.

Correct in several ways.

When I said that the US is uniquely situated to test what I'll call the "Rambo effect" in deference to the progressives here, I meant that literally. The US has weaponry already in place, but more important, it has the psychological willingness to effect self-protection with guns, particularly handguns. I want to see one time what happens when there are, say 16 armed patrons at a club like Pulse. That is 5%. None of the leftists here need apply. I find it inconceivable that someone wouldn't have an opportunity to shoot Mateen in a 3-hour hostage situation. And I believe there is a certain deterrent effect in a "gun allowed zone" even if there are no concealed weapons there.

Lenin and Castro both said you need three things in order to form a socialist state (in any order):
1. control of education
2. nationalized health care
3. elimination of guns

Drok, the debate in the States is primarily about the left wanting to disarm the citizenry. Rocky alluded to that, and so have I. If the folks in favor of gun control in this forum could ban the AR-15 today, they would do so. And when that didn't work, they would ban any weapon that could be concealed. What statistics DO prove is that there is no statistical correlation between gun-control legislation and gun violence.

[hack]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/20/trump_campaign_raised_less_money_in_may_than_veron ica_mars_movie_kickstarter.html

Some astonishing numbers in there. I'm sure he wants to run an unconventional campaign and all, but occam's razor here is that he was running for publicity, not president, and now he needs an exit strategy.

[iam416]

His personality and pride suggest a different occam's razor outcome, though, right? He can't just bow out. He has to be "forced" out.

Or, as you said, he needs an exit strategy, and not just any old exit strategy, but one that preserves his Trumpness.

[froot loops]

It's too late for Trump to get out.

[hack]

His personality and pride suggest a different occam's razor outcome, though, right? He can't just bow out. He has to be "forced" out.

Or, as you said, he needs an exit strategy, and not just any old exit strategy, but one that preserves his Trumpness.

He's run for president before, said outrageous things, gotten his little publicity boost, and bowed out. Surely that's what he expected this time around as well. Now of course he can't just do that. But for the GOP, no matter his real motivations, there sure is a compelling case to do something at the convention. As you mention, downballet candidates are at risk.

[Da Geezer]

I said:

Do you expect me to believe there has not been anyone killed in Chicago by gun violence since April 24, 2016 (to June 19, 2016)

Hack replied:

I don't think you're reading it right. This wouldn't tell you that. But it does give you scores of places where mass shootings took place in an area where your theoretical scenario could play itself out because guns are allowed. Not gonna hold your hand with it here - you are plenty smart enough to figure that out.

We've gotten to the end point as far as I'm concerned -- there are root causes to be looked at and there are bandaids. The bandaid approach has proven effective in the rest of the world, and here we choose not to apply it. That's it for me. Is where I wanted to go with this.

Fair enough. You cannot or will not cite an example where a mass shooting took place in a place where guns are allowed.

I'm sure I could have gone to the NRA website and found scores of stories where citizens protected themselves in shooting situations. That is why I chose the incident I posted. That lady was not a member of the NRA. I thought what she said about clips/magazines was relevant, and Chuck Schumer was taking her seriously.

I view the US as unique. You don't. Fair enough. And I acknowledge you have more real-world experience than I which is why I read your posts carefully. But I believe that the 18-22-year-olds at Virginia Tech who kneeled before their executioner are made of the same stuff as the men of similar age who took Omaha Beach or wrecked the NVA during Tet. I think they are poorly indoctrinated (yup, I'm using an inflammatory word in place of "educated").

I don't believe there exists a "safe zone" in which to "cower" during macroaggressions.

[entropy]

His personality and pride suggest a different occam's razor outcome, though, right? He can't just bow out. He has to be "forced" out.

Or, as you said, he needs an exit strategy, and not just any old exit strategy, but one that preserves his Trumpness.

....Like the republicans voting for someone else and in effect, knocking Trump out of the election. He will cry foul and claim for years he would have won. But I'm not sure the republicans will actually do it. They don't want to piss off that many voters.

[hack]

I gave you a list of them. Look if you wanna look.

[Da Geezer]

Some astonishing numbers in there. I'm sure he wants to run an unconventional campaign and all, but occam's razor here is that he was running for publicity, not president, and now he needs an exit strategy.

agreed. And any exit strategy involves someone who could be nominated and elected. James Comey?