Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[iam416]

Islam is a very good way to control the thoughts of millions. Definitely better than the other major religions, or, at least, the combination of the places and it, where it reigns.

Islam and its features are very good at conquest. It has numerous things that keep it remarkably insular -- ritual, daily praying, apostasy penalties like, say, death, views on infidels and other non-muslims. It's also remarkably backward -- medieval.

If you want a way to rank religions by the amount of hate they generate, I think any one that sends missionaries abroad gets extra points.

I'll take missionaries over terrorists. But your mileage may vary. Full disclosure, my aunt is a jehovah's witness...they travel the world to one third world hellhole after another. I don't think they're looking to stone people to death -- I could be wrong. But my interactions with proselytizing witnesses is in line with this conclusion.

Anyway, Christianity is largely liberalized/westernized. The US is still a plurality christian nation and, e.g., permits gay marriage and, e.g., doesn't behead gay folks. Islam, in way too many places, is medieval and appallingly so to any person valuing western liberal ideals.

[iam416]

Could you provide a single quote from me in which i defend murdering gays in foreign countries? Honestly, YOU want to talk about shameful shit? And this is the 3rd or 4th time you've accused me of supporting countries that treat gays as subhumans. For someone who claims to despise trolling and people who can't have reasonable debates, I don't know how you expect to have a decent conversation if you are going to immediately claim I defend/support the countries that commit these atrocities. I doubt there's been anyone here that criticized and bashed Saudi Arabia as much as I have and America's sickening support of the Kingdom.

Can you provide one quote where I said you SUPPORT this shitball countries? Of course not. You know exactly what you're doing -- I made the point that we ought to condemn Islamic countries that treat gays like subhumans. And you, to offer a "fuller picture", -- say yeah, but in the US evangelicals are less understanding than muslims. It's not SUPPORTING the asshats; but it's clearly a post to lump evangelicals in with the dirtbags killing gay folks for being gay. EQUIVOCATION. In my mind pointing the light at another group and equivocating...saying "them, too, them, too!" is a defense...albeit a weak awful one.

And what's more, you're using a garbage stat for the reasons I stated and which you did not and can not refute. All for the sake of shitting on evangelicals?

Look, obviously you don't SUPPORT Muslim-State sponsored executions of gays. If you took me as saying that, then my apologies. But, man, from where I sit you sure seem to hate yourself some evangelicals.

[Wild Hoss]

Don't be fatuous, Hoss. You know, as well as I, that there are two types of laws -- malum in se and malum prohibitum. Anyone who has watched Legally Blonde knows this. The former laws are laws because they are morally wrong. You know, murder and such. We, as a society, have decided that murder, rape, robbery, etc are wrong and that those who commit those crimes should be punished even if we can't catch them all.

Malum prohibitum laws are more or less policy-based laws -- they don't, at all, rest on any sort of moral base. When you're talking about those laws -- most often regulatory laws -- then efficacy and outcomes damn well fucking matter. There are, e.g., a lot of people who question drug laws on this basis -- and rightly so, IMO. Right now roughly 10% of homicides are committed with legally purchased firearms. So, in theory, you have laws that ought to keep guns out of the hands of bad folks if, say, the bad folks followed the law.

Further increased gun ownership does not lead to increased homicide rates in the US, at least if you're looking at it in terms of race. White folks own guns at more than 2X the rate black folks do. Black folks commit murders with guns at more than 3X the rate white folks do. That is, of course, just another way of saying homicide are primarily environment driven. White folks tend to use guns to commit suicides, which account for the significant majority of gun deaths in the US.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Of course a goddamn sign isn't a deterrent to a lunatic.

[iam416]

Thanks for just giving up. It's the noble thing to do.

[hack]

And perhaps, or even very likely, your aunt has only the best of intentions and has made a positive difference in the lives of some people. Missionaries are like any other group, in that they range from angels to assholes. But the concept and the over impact is bad. It just spreads hate and creates more articifical justifications for dehumanizing foreigners. There are deep-into-extremism parts of Iran where a Jew is more welcome than a Christian because of the impact missionaries have had. It turns out that, just like Americans, people elsewhere don't like to be told that their culture and identity is inferior and can be improved. But surely nobody is framing the debate as missionaries vs terrorists. My point is that missionaries make things worse. Except for Jim Harbaugh. He is the best missionary.

[hack]

I doubt there's been anyone here that criticized and bashed Saudi Arabia as much as I have and America's sickening support of the Kingdom.

I'm sorry DSL, or anyone else, but you will not outdo me. No one here can hate the Saudis more than me. I dare you!

[Mike]

I can throw my hat in that ring.

I also LOLed at your Harbaugh quip.

[hack]

If you want to join the People's Front of Judea, you'd have to REALLY hate the Romans.

[iam416]

My point is that missionaries make things worse.

Yeah, I get that. My point, which I'm sure you get, is that the impact of missionaries on the "spreads hate" thing is trivial, IMO -- after some quick reading. But, eh, whatever. I don't really have any interest in discussing the relative harm missionaries do absent a good argument as to why I should -- which I'm open to.

I'm sorry DSL, or anyone else, but you will not outdo me. No one here can hate the Saudis more than me. I dare you!

True. Hack HATES the Kingdom. God bless.

[hack]

That Eliza Grizwold book is really good. I don't think it's trivial. Christianitiy has its missionaries, Saudi sends imams. The tenth parallel, above the equator, happens to be a place where a few heavily populated states are the battleground for this. Nigeria and Indonesia are the two key ones. I think, ultimately, that aggressive expansionism is a terrible trait for a religion. Take that away and everything else looms smaller. I think it's a very early on part of the chain of causal reactions.

[Dr. Strangelove]

1) I apologize if I go overboard on Evangelicals. But their opinion is their opinion. It's possible, probably even likely, certain Muslim sects would've scored lower than them in that poll.

2) It's completely true than the worst countries in the world for gays are almost universally Islamic and I've never defended practices in those countries. In fact I've denounced them often and routinely bash The Kingdom as a despicable 'ally'.

3) There are people who are no friend to gay rights that are now seeking to take advantage of this event because they dislike Muslims even more than gays. These people don't wish death on gays (well, a small number do) but they have stood in the path of gay civil rights for decades in the US and speak of the 'gay agenda' corrupting youth. Between beheading gays and banning them from marriage is no comparison. But I think I'm entirely within my rights to be skeptical of people who have said nothing in support of gay rights or even stood in the way but now see an opportunity for new recruits against the 'common foe': Islam

4) And before anyone gets started, gun control advocates will try to take advantage of the event too. But I agree with what you pointed out in how differently we handle drugs and guns. With drugs they demand the tightest enforcement, intense regulation, tightest restrictions, zero tolerance...with guns it's "well criminals won't respect the regulations, so there's no point in having them".

[iam416]

That Eliza Grizwold book is really good. I don't think it's trivial. Christianitiy has its missionaries, Saudi sends imams. The tenth parallel, above the equator, happens to be a place where a few heavily populated states are the battleground for this. Nigeria and Indonesia are the two key ones. I think, ultimately, that aggressive expansionism is a terrible trait for a religion. Take that away and everything else looms smaller. I think it's a very early on part of the chain of causal reactions.

I'll take a looksy at the Grizwold book. Hope it's as good as Christmas Vacation.

DSL:

I agree with your point (3) and point (4). I'm no fan of political opportunism and these events spawn ungodly amounts. I think Jonah Goldberg said of the San Bernardino massacre that it's a "political Rohrschach" test. You see what you want to see and meme away. The idea of, as you say, folks who have stood in the way of gay rights ostensibly taking up for them is a bad look. I agree. I can probably list half a dozen other examples on both left and right that are bad looks of varying degree.

WRT (4), you're getting at a really interesting question which I sort of hinted at. First, I think you correctly note the discrepancy in who conservatives view guns/drugs. It's worth pointing out that liberals are arguing the opposite discrepancy. Second, if consistency is the goal, then which way do you push? The progressive view on drugs, e.g., includes this "warehousing" of AAs in our prisons. Tahiti Coates, for one, has written extensively on it. Well, what happens if we ramp up gun law enforcement? The statistics sort of tell you exactly what will happen -- AAs will be disproportionately imprisoned. Increasing regulations and, presumably, increasing enforcement will have a disparate impact on AAs.

So, I go back and forth on it. Broken window policing has its failings, but I think the overall policy has attributable successes, too. Now, I don't live in a community where it matters, so part of me thinks it ought to be up to the communities most affected. And the civil libertarian in me thinks both sets of laws are mostly horseshit. So, eh....dunno.

[Wild Hoss]

Thanks for just giving up. It's the noble thing to do.

Zzzzzzz.

[froot loops]

I like what Jeffrey Goldberg said, when he said it can be about guns, homophobia, Islamic terrorism, etc...

Trying to find one magic bullet to stop this is a fools errand.

[iam416]

Trying to find one magic bullet to stop this is a fools errand.

Correct. IMO, the danger as a government is in overreacting as opposed to doing nothing.