Originally posted by lineygoblue
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Originally posted by Jeff Buchanan View PostThere's been one, maybe two posts here regarding the elephant in the room ...... namely the debate regarding the protection of Civil Liberties versus the need for improved Counterterrorism Policies.
Mateen was an Islamic terrorist and our current safety net for identifying him as such and preventing him from carrying out the terrorist act he perpetrated failed us ....... Jon, I am waiting for your response.
IMHO, civil liberties are paramount. If the feds want to gather info from social media and other public areas where drooling idiots regularly post, fine. But unless you've got a damn good court sanctioned reason, stay out of my life (email, telephone, skype, browsing history, purchasing history, etc). I'll take my risk against terrorist attacks.
The internet has seemingly removed all inhibitions concerning discourse. There are plenty of places to identify potential evil doers. Its not like they hide. If not on the internet, they seem to scream to the world (usually at work) about their intentions or their fealty to terrorist organizations. The difficult part is what to do and still preserve due process.
I'm not at all confident that the gov't will do anything of value. Either they do nothing (like this Pulse incident) or completely disregard the Constitution as in the Jose Padilla case. Our gov't is so paranoid about secrecy that it is counterproductive. No notice (other than 'the threat level has been moved to orange') ever comes out. Documents are excessively redacted. For example, the 911 Commission report and the Patriot Act have classified provisions. Why? The gov't claims that it is to protect sources. That's bullshit. Large sections of the redacted 911 report is about to be released. When that comes out, lets see if it was for security reasons or just to shield embarassing positions/activities. Same for the Patriot Act - if the law is intended to protect America and its citizens, why are sections classified? This is not a black budget discussion, its about what citizen's are empowering the gov't to do. Worst of all, we leave it to so-called 'representatives' to make that decision. And allow ourselves to be legally kept from knowing exactly what.
Its up to the citizens to decide what needs to be done. Giving up our civil rights on the gov't assurance we'll be protected and there won't be any abuse is a world class hallucination. Citizens need, for the first time, specifically tell Congress what to do. But there's no grass roots activity on this front, other than a few agenda driven think tanks.“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx
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Originally posted by Jeff Buchanan View PostNot going to work? How far would you go? I can think a few ways to round these weapons up or at least create a huge dent in the black market supply after you have done what you are calling for legislatively.
Is something like this - a national program to remove these weapons from public hands - an intrusion on your civil liberties?
By the letter of the law, all restrictions on arms are an intrusion. So, technically, I should be able to own a chain gun, flamethrower, a TOW missile, what have you. We accept already that some of these things are simply too dangerous for possession by the public at large, so further steps are possible I guess. Theoretically.
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There is no question about this ....... when an individual with no training in self defense (i.e, most civilians) is faced with any potential violent act, your best course of action is to flee.
Going to a firing range and learning to fire a hand gun is not getting trained in self defense. When confronting an individual with intent to harm you, unless you have been exposed to and are trained in close range combat with or without a weapon available to you, you are much more likely to end up the victim than the victor.
Have a plan to escape.Last edited by Jeff Buchanan; June 13, 2016, 11:03 AM.Mission to CFB's National Championship accomplished. But the shine on the NC Trophy is embarrassingly wearing off. It's M B-Ball ..... or hockey or volley ball or name your college sport favorite time ...... until next year.
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Originally posted by The Oracle View PostThere's got to be more than one thing to be done. SOME "Civil Liberties" will need to be given up by people on terrorist lists and some will need to be given up by those who feel they need semi automatic weapons to defend their home.
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Originally posted by Jeff Buchanan View PostThere is no question about this ....... when an individual with no training in self defense (i.e, most civilians) is faced with any potential violent act, your best course of action is to flee.
Going to a firing range and learning to fire a hand gun is not getting trained in self defense. When confronting and individual with intent to harm you, unless you have been exposed to and are trained in close range combat with or without a weapon available to you, you ar much more likely to end up the victim than the victor.
Have a plan to escape.
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Thanks, Jon. Very balanced response to my question and we're getting at the meat of the debate.
What I like best about your post was the part stating we the people need to tell our representatives what we want them to do in this debate. The other part I liked is that you also stated there is no grass roots effort to do that ....... we are an uninvolved ans seemingly disinterested electorate when it comes to one of the most important issues of our time.
If you're not informed about the Patriot Act and all the important issues it raises on both sides of the debate, you are a part of the problem which is why I raised the issue in my original post.Mission to CFB's National Championship accomplished. But the shine on the NC Trophy is embarrassingly wearing off. It's M B-Ball ..... or hockey or volley ball or name your college sport favorite time ...... until next year.
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Originally posted by froot loops View PostI understand the sentiment, I just don't think it happens at any rate where that is a reason to stop any legislation. It is kind of like when some of the administration would argue for torture user the Jack Bauer defense. They were arguing for a ticking time bomb and if you had to torture a guy for the combination would you do it? Well of course they would do it, but it wasn't a realistic scenario and they were arguing it to justify torturing low level operatives that really didn't have a clue.Last edited by Rocky Bleier; June 13, 2016, 11:12 AM.I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
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and police departments have a need for magazine-fed weapons. The pubic at large does not.
Unless you're a former Ranger or Seal that never misses a target, you're in trouble."in order to lead America you must love America"
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By the letter of the law, all restrictions on arms are an intrusion. So, technically, I should be able to own a chain gun, flamethrower, a TOW missile, what have you. We accept already that some of these things are simply too dangerous for possession by the public at large, so further steps are possible I guess. Theoretically.Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.
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Originally posted by Wild Hoss View Post...and police departments have a need for magazine-fed weapons. The pubic at large does not.I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
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Originally posted by Hannibal View PostI agree with this, but when a guy has time to just sit there and reload you've got to wonder.
There is an evolving awareness and willingness on the part of authorities to conduct training in how to act in the face of an attack in a public place. I'm all for this and expanding this effort is absolutely an essential part of any National Counterterrorism strategy.
National authorities, despite the foolishness of it all, taught us how to potentially survive a Nuclear Attack from the Soviets in the 50s. This is a much more serious and very real threat that should pound home the need for some modicum of training in how to deal with these attacks.
That the Orlando Police may have bungled their immediate response (reportedly 3h to enter the building after the presence of an active shooter was confirmed ???) to the Mateen attack raises very serious questions as to the level of preparedness of police authorities to deal with this sort of thing. That's another issue that should be pounded home. Train the police to act once the attack is underway.Mission to CFB's National Championship accomplished. But the shine on the NC Trophy is embarrassingly wearing off. It's M B-Ball ..... or hockey or volley ball or name your college sport favorite time ...... until next year.
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I think it would be of some use for folks in power to point out just how fucking much Sharia law hates gay folks. It'd be nice to point out that it ain't just some wackjob in Orlando--it's entire fucking countries...and lots of them. I think something like 10 countries in this world punish homosexuality with death and they're all predominantly one religion. I'd also like to see the generally anti-liberal, anti-western bullshit called out, too.
It's appalling, and those nations -- including the Saudis -- ought to be taken to task for it.Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.
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