Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[entropy]

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article118921298.html

Over the last two decades, hundreds of firefighters were killed and tens of thousands injured in incidents that bore a grim connection: They had happened before in almost exactly the same ways.
The Kansas City Star, in a monthslong investigation, found widespread problems within America’s fire service. Topping the list was that, in tragedy after tragedy, firefighters paid the price when fire departments didn’t learn from others’ mistakes.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/natio...#storylink=cpy

[Wild Hoss]

http://www.kansascity.com/news/natio...118921298.html

Over the last two decades, hundreds of firefighters were killed and tens of thousands injured in incidents that bore a grim connection: They had happened before in almost exactly the same ways.
The Kansas City Star, in a monthslong investigation, found widespread problems within America?s fire service. Topping the list was that, in tragedy after tragedy, firefighters paid the price when fire departments didn?t learn from others? mistakes.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/natio...#storylink=cpy

I'll run that past my brother and get his opinion. He was just promoted to new cadet training officer, so its quite pertinent.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Steelworkers Union boss goes on CNN to criticize Trump for lying about how many jobs he's 'saving' by giving Carrier big tax breaks....Trump responds almost immediately on Twitter to bash the Steelworker Union

[ame]https://twitter.com/OutFrontCNN/status/806659056505122816[/ame]

[ame]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/806660011904614408[/ame]

[ame]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/806678853305384960[/ame]

[Da Geezer]

You're saying that the only way government can can build infrastructure is by printing money? It cannot come from revenue?

How do you know Trump sold ALL his stocks?

That is what he reported on his disclosure form that I read, the one with the 500 different companies. I don't remember exactly where I read the amount, but I have heard that number several times. I guess he could lie on the forms, but to what purpose.

I said

I thought we had already settled matters related to "the commons". I favor government spending when it protects or improves that which the citizens hold in common. Infrastructure is one of those items. And printing money clearly increases GDP in a manner that is relatively "cost free" to current taxpayers. I believe that future generations are also included in "the commons", and such deficit spending guarantees a lower quality of life for future citizens.

I didn't say that the only way to build infrastructure is by printing money. I just pointed out that deficit spending almost always increases current GDP by mortgaging the future. Of course, the infrastructure can be built using tax revenues, but one needs to acknowledge that the government is taking out of the economy in taxes the same amount of money it is putting into the economy. I don't think taxes are considered as part of GDP, so, yes, government spending in itself would raise GDP. But the honest way to look at it is to say that if the infrastructure produces more utility than the other uses of the taxpayer's money, then that government spending is a good thing.

Remember, hack, this whole line of discussion came up about 6 months ago when I was trying to figure out what negative interest rates meant. The Obama administration spent $ 10,000 billion dollars more than it took in, and that doesn't count the state level deficits. That is what you call stimulus. And the economy grew at around 2% per year, well below its historical average. The question has to be asked, "how did this level of stimulus not work to accelerate the economy?"

I believe the infrastructure plan will be oriented toward the private sector, using mostly private money, and particularly using the $2-3 trillion held overseas, if repatriated. JMO.

And Oracle, did you get a look at that guy's mug shot. Man, he looked like he got shot at and missed, and shit at and hit.

[froot loops]

Steelworkers Union boss goes on CNN to criticize Trump for lying about how many jobs he's 'saving' by giving Carrier big tax breaks....Trump responds almost immediately on Twitter to bash the Steelworker Union

https://twitter.com/OutFrontCNN/status/806659056505122816

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/806660011904614408

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...78853305384960

4 years of this Flim Flam man.

[SeattleLionsFan]

Watch out Froot. You are next

[froot loops]

Yeah that's right, everybody is fair game in his world.

[froot loops]

Just looking at Da Geezers latest thought experiment, the Obama administration did not spend $10,000 billion more than it took in. He reading fake news again.

If he's referring to the rise in the national debt, that was mainly from the financial panic, it certainly wasn't from fiscal stimulus. That stimulus was relatively tame compared to the size of the panic. When economies go through panics like these the tax base shrinks and revenues decrease. This is all standard macro economic 101 type of stuff.

And the US doesn't do negative interstate rates, Japan and the Scandinavian countries are experimenting with this.

[hack]

I don't really want to keep going around on that -- we've just got to admit and agree that govt spending counts as GDP. Private-sector-first people need to acknowledge that govt can contribute to GDP. Has a role. In France, govt is called the ``primary sector'' and the private sector the ``secondary''. Or something like that. Here in the US we don't want that approach obviously, but to deny that government is unable to contribute to GDP is to deny the basic facts. If we can't agree on basic facts we can't have a discussion.

That said:

1. I would be at a loss to explain why, but direct taxes are not counted in GDP although indirect ones are.

2. https://www.ft.com/content/ee554c60-...e-a1acd97f622d.

"A tax holiday for US companies looms under president-elect Donald Trump, with some seeing this wave of cash as the catalyst of an investment boom and faster US economic growth. However, analysts and investors caution that the likeliest result is companies putting the money into*share buybacks, echoing what happened in 2004 when the last overseas tax holiday was announced."

Earlier this year the congressional joint committee on taxation estimated the US company cash pile could amount to as much as $2.6tn.

[Hannibal]

Government can legitmately add value when they provide an environment of stability or legitimate public goods. Public works projects like roads, airports, etc and, of course, national defense generally fall into this category. So does environmental quality. All but the most hardcore, extreme Libertarians accept this view. This is why endorsing a Donald Trump public works program doesn't violate some sort of ideological purity test. It is also why in heavily Republican locales, tax proposals to build new schools or hire a few new police officers usually don't have much of a problem passing. On the federal level, there has been no debate about this for along time. In my lifetime, all of the debate about the size and function of the federal government has cetered around redistributive "fairness", and not the merit of public works. Obama literally doubled the size of our national debt and none of it was for public investments that have some sort of payout down the road in the form of increased economic activity. That last sentence is what Rush Limbaugh was saying in his monologue that people didn't fully read.

Donald Trump is not a Libertarian/Conservative idealogue who approaches every problem from the standpoint of whether government has a proper role in solving it. I have said this for almost a year now. We had our guys who do that, and they have failed. That ship sailed. So yeah -- Trump is going to interfere in free markets. He never said he wouldn't. He downright promised that he would do it. He didn't say that he was going to shut off Gimmiedat programs -- only that he would limit them to American citizens and reduce their cost by eliminating ripoffs and inefficiences. Nothing that Trump is doing is confusing to anyone who listened to him speak for 12 months before the election. He's a hardcore nationalist with center-right economic attitudes. He only appears to be wild an inconsistent because most people are viewing him through the Left = Big government vs. Right = Small government spectrum that has defined politics for about 50 years.

[froot loops]

Discussions about growth of GDP or growth of the economy in general talk too much about taxes or interest rates relative to actual productivity advances.

Of course government spending is counted as part of the GDP. One only has to read quarterly reports, government spending is one of categories.

[hack]

When this started, Geezer told me government cannot contribute to GDP. Or increase it. Or, if he wants to clarify, he can. The discussion has to be grounded in reality.

[entropy]

I thought Obama leveraged gov't debt to push for renewable energy. I'd suggest that was for public investment that will help down the road.

[hack]

THANKS OBAMA

[froot loops]

Fat chance on that. I can't fathom where he learned about GDP. Ha.


The Chinese economy is a pretty steady 6 to 7 percent GDP, quite clearly government spending has driven this.