Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[UMStan White]

As SLF's cite points out, few people know the story behind the "dead cops" chant and merely wish to cite it as a shining example of their own ignorant beliefs.

[Ghengis Jon]

Hey people, lets step back and take a breath. Let the temp cool a bit, okay?

As a distraction, did anyone see the 60 Minutes interview of both Pence and Trump? What a train wreck. It's clear these two guys know exactly zip about the other.

The GOP convention starts tonight. I'm fixin' a big bowl of popcorn and am going to thoroughly enjoy the circus. Ought to tide me over until the next circus in a couple of weeks.

[SeattleLionsFan]

No disagreement with your list, Stan. None of these people, as far as I know - and I don't recognize all of them, have advocated for violence against police.

The problem is, as Mike points out, I have the perception, and I doubt I am alone, that the voices of reason among those you list that are advocates for civil rights and social justice, seem to be getting drowned out by the "steady drumbeat" of activism that advocates violence against police.

I do see that a good deal of this is coming from the press who would rather sensationalize circumstances surrounding the killings of police officers rather than report the "boring facts" or report what those who truly do not advocate violence and instead advocate for community involvement and respectability politics as the means to redress perceived grievances are saying.

I think the perception is in accurate and unjustified and advanced by those with an agenda to try to delegitimize the BLM movement and civil rights movements in general.

[lineygoblue]

Its your lucky day, Stan.

I'm going to fulfill your prophecy against me.

I had to laugh out loud when I saw some of the names on that list.

Melissa Harris-Perry? .. oh my .. LOL

But, at least you left out Harry Bellefonte. To your credit, of course.

And you left off Coretta Scott King. Maybe we actually agree?

naaaaahhhh....

[Jeff Buchanan]

.......But there is no evidence that the shooters were part of or inspired by BLM.

This is a fair point. I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen anything currently from the BLM movement overtly calling for violence against police. OTH, I haven't seen anyone in the leadership of that movement speak out against the killings either. I may not have seen it either as the press may not be covering that sort of thing adequately.

Mike's POV, which I share, seems to be an accurate one, fair to the BLM or the civil rights movement in general or not. I'd argue that the moderate voices within BLM and the Civil Rights movement out to be speaking up forcefully to mitigate the public perception right now.

[lineygoblue]

I'd argue that the moderate voices within BLM and the Civil Rights movement out to be speaking up forcefully to mitigate the public perception right now.

I think this especially true since one of yesterday's victims was a black cop.

A nephew, by the way, of Michigan's former RB coach Fred Jackson.

[hack]

Salute to Geezer for the Erdogan democracy/bus comment. I'd forgotten about that one but that sums up the guy PERFECTLY. Elections may be the public face of democracy but there's a whole bunch of innards that fill it out. Erdogan is an elected autocrat.

So many in Turkey think this was staged so he can have another round of purges. Everything in Turkey needs to be filtered through Erdogan's desire to change the constitution to vest executive power in the presidency rather than the prime minister. He hasn't gotten the electoral mandate yet. A second filter is his kid's construction company. I don't think there's any concern about sharia law -- you'd have to visit Turkey and then the rest of the region to understand how truly different that society is and it's really something to imagine any sort of sharia influence past a certain threshold. But never say never these days. I can't imagine staging a coup -- the degree of difficulty seems awfully high. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that raises an eyebrow, and people I know and respect there are pretty convinced he staged it. He's got a history of staging failed attacks on himself so he can then attack others.

[iam416]

I don't think BLM can be fairly said to advocate killing cops in any way.

I do think BLM, like most activist groups, cares little about the facts and far more about their agenda. Their are good anecdotal incidents for BLM and bad ones, but they don't discriminate and will advance their cause whether the facts are good or bad. Further, the macro evidence suggests their policy concerns are, at best, misguided.

I do think BLM, along with most liberals, would roundly reject the notion that a man should be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. That is, afterall, the very argument against affirmative action.

I also think the BLM message is very much worth considering, evaluating and trying to find sensible ways to address. That said, AAs have to accept accountability as well. AAs have to acknowledge the underlying reasons for increased police need in certain communities. They have to acknowledge their own community failings. It's not particularly hard to find anecdotal evidence of what happens when you make it really hard to aggressively police: Chicago.

I weep for the law-abiding citizens stuck in shitholes like that. The social norms make it almost impossible to get out. For that matter, I weep for the folks born into similar situations of despair in Appalachia. The social norms they'll encounter will make it very hard for them to escape.

[Jeff Buchanan]

........I don't think there's any concern about sharia law -- you'd have to visit Turkey and then the rest of the region to understand how truly different that society is and it's really something to imagine any sort of sharia influence past a certain threshold. But never say never these days.

I'd disagree with this somewhat, Hack .......

The term "Sharia" is ill defied when it comes to jurisprudence and that is because how Sharia Law might be introduced and practiced varies widely by sect (predominantly Sunni and Shia), by country within which it is practiced and by how much of Islamic Law is implemented.

My view based on what I know of the country and people I have met there or met here and had discussions about this with is that Erdogan is definitely viewed as an elected autocrat. But some elements within Turkish society, mostly women and those who have business and free trade interests, he is viewed very unfavorably. Skepticism abounds in this group about his motives.

His activities over the last 2 years to consolidate his powers and quell descent about this seems to me to be seen by a majority of Turks as problematic and represent a precursor to the establishment of some degree of Sharia (subject to the confusion about it I mention above).

So now we get to the question of trying to determine which way Turkey will go with respect to governance. Will any level of Islamic Law influence it; what level and to what extent will that be? We could have Saudia Arabia and Iran like governance where Sharia Law, implemented almost entirely according to the Koran or Hadith is enforced by the Mullahs or autocratic kingdoms. That sort of outcome would be viewed by the West as not a representative form of governance and would impede relationships. We also could see a much more moderate implementation of portions of Sharia law as is seen in countries like Jordan and Morocco, among others.

My view is that the majority of the public in Turkey rejects the implementation of any kind of Sharia Law as a means of influencing the governance of the country. The distrust regarding Erdogan's intentions runs high. The worrisome thing is that the powerful influences of practitioners of Islam in the ME, in particular Iran and its surrogates like Hamas has the potential of tilting an Erdogan and his political and military allies led Turkey toward governance that is much more Islamic in character with the attendant loss of human rights so pervasive in that religion.

[SeattleLionsFan]

This is a fair point. I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen anything currently from the BLM movement overtly calling for violence against police. OTH, I haven't seen anyone in the leadership of that movement speak out against the killings either. I may not have seen it either as the press may not be covering that sort of thing adequately.

Mike's POV, which I share, seems to be an accurate one, fair to the BLM or the civil rights movement in general or not. I'd argue that the moderate voices within BLM and the Civil Rights movement out to be speaking up forcefully to mitigate the public perception right now.

Blm leadership has called for the violence to end. http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-s...lls-for-peace/

The fact that you haven't seen it, and base your opinion on that fact, speaks to things other than the blm leadership.

[entropy]

liney... see what happens when you let a bama fan have a home here....

total chaos since then..

(and that wasn't an insult)

[Jeff Buchanan]

Blm leadership has called for the violence to end. http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-s...lls-for-peace/

The fact that you haven't seen it, and base your opinion on that fact, speaks to things other than the blm leadership.

Thanks for that link. I read every article in it.

My take: The BLM movement, while it is parsing it's words with regard to perceptions that the movement is in any way responsible for the killings of police in the last month carefully, I don't feel that it is accepting any level of responsibility for outcomes, unintended as they may be, which it may have precipitated.

There's quite a bit in that link describing the fears of police officers when they conduct routine patrols or answer 911 calls. So, increased activism led by the BLM movement, well intentioned or not, disclaimers that they are not responsible for the killing of cops not withstanding, remains, in my view problematic.

I think you are exactly right, SLF, that there is no direct evidence linking the BLM movement to the killings of police officers. But there is an indirect link, IMO, to them by virtue of there sometimes loud, in your face stance that could be considered inciting people to more violent activism. I'm seeing it on the news in ATL and it's not FOX.

The best thing the leadership of BLM could do right now is to mount an active campaign to reverse the perceptions of people like me that their movement is, indeed a peaceful one. It's not like I have ignored their public statements; it could be because people that share my concerns see things through a different lens than people of color or you do. That's a possible explanation, not a condemnation.

[Wild Hoss]

Did I seriously just see OP challenge Stan to a fight...in the Hamptons?

[UMStan White]

"The best thing the leadership of BLM could do right now is to mount an active campaign to reverse the perceptions of people like me that their movement is, indeed a peaceful one. It's not like I have ignored their public statements; it could be because people that share my concerns see things through a different lens than people of color or you do. That's a possible explanation, not a condemnation."

With all due respect those "perceptions" have existed my entire life. going back to the Black Panthers CORE,SNCC, etc. There are those here who staunchly support 2nd Amendment rights, bemoan he death knell for 4th amendment rights, and want to scream "free speech" at the top of their lungs. They seem to conveniently forget that two of the rights enumerated in the 1st amendment is the right to assemble and the right to petition the government. BLM is exercising those rights just as the anti-war movement and black pride movement in the 60's and 70's did. BLM is not responsible for the actions of a few nuts. Who is to say that the Dallas and Baton Rouge shootings would not have taken place eventually regardless of the existence of BLM. It is interesting to see that almost all the criticism directed towards BLM and the suggestion that the movement not only fosters cop shootings, but gleefully celebrates those shootings come from white people.

[UMStan White]

"Did I seriously just see OP challenge Stan to a fight...in the Hamptons?"


Heh heh eh.......YEP!