Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[iam416]

I was speaking about Lincoln, AA, not just 1860 Lincoln. But, anyway...STFU.

Less War of Southern Treason. Less chess references. More Wizard.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Seconded.

[iam416]

Is that an evolving world view and ethos or is it pragmatism in that it was obvious that the Union would win by that time? In chess parlance, you never consider a draw when you have mate in seven.

Eh, one more -- I don't think it was evolving -- at least not during his Presidency. I think he always wanted to end slavery but was always operating in the pragmatic world.

[Tom W]

1861 Lincoln thought McClellan the right choice. 1864 Lincoln was very different.

If 1861 Lincoln thought Grant, or Sherman, was the right choice, 1864 Lincoln probably wouldn't have been much different..

[THE_WIZARD_]

Maybe we should replace Lincoln on Mt. Rushmore with Jefferson Davis...or better yet...Robert E. Lee...

[THE_WIZARD_]

Talent v The Anti-Lincolnites will end up like Grant-Lee...can we fucking move on now...

[Dr. Strangelove]

Maybe we should replace Lincoln on Mt. Rushmore with Jefferson Davis...or better yet...Robert E. Lee...

It already exists. It's called Stone Mountain and it's hallowed ground for many a redneck

[iam416]

That's right. I vaguely remember AA prattling on about his annual pilmgrimmage there to honor "fallen hereoes" or some such nonsense.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Been there. Went there for a July 4 fireworks show. Redneck heaven. I think I saw AA holding hands with Larry The Cable Guy.

[Da Geezer]

I'm surprised you Ohio boys have not brought up Clement Vallandingham. He was an anti-war Dem from southern Ohio who represented the rural folks there who feared that freed slaves would take their jobs. From Wiki:

Captain James Madison Cutts served as the judge advocate in the military trial, and he was responsible for authoring the charges against Vallandigham.^[24] During the trial, testimony was given by Union army officers who attended the speech in civilian clothes, that Vallandigham called the president "King Lincoln".^[25] He was sentenced to confinement in a military prison "during the continuance of the war" at Fort Warren in Massachusetts.^[26] Vallandingham only called one witness in his defense, Congressman Samuel S. Cox. According to University of New Mexico School of Law Professor Joshua E. Kastenberg, because Cox was a well-known anti-war Democrat, his presence at the military court likely harmed Vallandigam's attempts at arguing his innocence.^[27]

On May 11, 1863, an application for a writ of habeas corpus was filed in federal court for Vallandigham by former Ohio Senator George E. Pugh.^[28] Judge Humphrey H. Leavitt of the Circuit Court of the United States for the Southern District of Ohio upheld Vallandigham's arrest and military trial as a valid exercise of the President's war powers.^[29] Congress had passed an act authorizing the president to suspend habeas corpus on March 3, 1863.^[30]

On May 16, 1863, there was a meeting at Albany, New York, to protest the arrest of Vallandigham. A letter from Governor Horatio Seymour of New York was read to the crowd. Seymour charged that "military despotism" had been established. Resolutions by the Hon. John V. L. Pruyin were adopted.^[31] The resolutions were sent to President Lincoln by Erastus Corning. In response to a public letter issued at the meeting of angry Democrats in Albany, Lincoln's "Letter to Erastus Corning et al." of June 12, 1863, explains his justification for supporting the court-martial's conviction.

In February 1864, the Supreme Court ruled that it had no power to issue a writ of habeas corpus to a military commission (Ex parte Vallandigham, 1 Wallace, 243).

So, Lincoln allowed the trial and imprisonment of the guy. Further, Lincoln took the position that habeas corpus could legally be suspended under a war powers doctrine.

Suppose a Prog President got a declaration of war against white supremacists (aka, Republicans). Is there any doubt that R leaders would be imprisoned and denied habeas corpus?

Lincoln was very judicious in the use of his war powers. Does anyone think Gavin Newsom would be as careful?

edit: see also "Liberia", "Forty Acres and a Mule"

[THE_WIZARD_]

Geezer...did you vote for Lincoln or Douglas?

[Da Geezer]

Lincoln.

I thought you knew I was a Republican.

[iam416]

Yeah, but then he switched up to McClellan in 1864.

[AlabamAlum]

I’m not anti-Lincoln. In fact, I have a gaudy gold bust of him in my office. I had a Jefferson bust but my son broke it playing ball in the house when he was 7. Fucking kids. Anyway, I just have an issue with Lost Cause revisionism from either side (“Lincoln, The Great Emancipator, who loved the negroes so much he went to war to free the slaves!” and other such nonsense).

[iam416]

Anyway, as stated numerous times, Lincoln's "exigencies" need to be considered in his legacy. That said, we were in the midst of a civil war and still largely functioning as a constitutional republic. Indeed, the election of 1864 could have easily given us the CSA. To my mind, this is way more consistent with American exceptionalism -- the notion that, yeah, we will let the electorate vote out the President in the midst of a civil war -- than it is with run-of-the-mill authoritarianism or dictators or whatever.

But, then again, I believe, firmly, in American exceptionalism.

And Clarence and the rest of the butternuts were fucktwats.