Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[WM Wolverine]

He'd (law abiding US Patriot with a concealed weapon permit) not been allowed in the nightclub as it was a weapons free zone. Laws won't deter terrorists/ criminals as they won't follow them.

[hack]

For the millionth time. No one wants to take guns away. Make them harder to get. Make semi automatic or those close to it illegal. Don't let people on the Do Not Fly List buy guns. That would be a step. It's not just one thing.

Well I don't know about that. Of course there are millions and millions of Americans who would support a complete ban. That's where this is headed eventually. The people most rigid on this are old. The people for whom it makes the least sense are young. It's not going to be like this for ever. There's a massive industry and money that will probably push that change off for some time despite what people want, but it's not going to stay the same. What cannot go on will not go on.

[Wild Hoss]

And then I'd profile right wing religious nuts... Then people who hate blacks... Then people who hate white people... Then


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...bohunks. But IMO we should start there.

[Wild Hoss]

He'd (law abiding US Patriot with a concealed weapon permit) not been allowed in the nightclub as it was a weapons free zone. Laws won't deter terrorists/ criminals as they won't follow them.

Should we just not have laws then? Because most laws I am aware of get broken...some quite frequently, based on our prison population.

[Wild Hoss]

One thing to consider, in re the argument that guns do not contribute to murder...i.e. the lack of guns equates murder by some other means (Knife, hammer, rock, etc).

The intentional homicide rate of or peer Western nations- all with far, stricter controls on firearms- is a fraction of ours.

In 2014, the US had 3.8 per 100,000.

Belgium: 1.4
France: 1.2
UK: 1.0
Germany: .9
Italy: .8

I think this put under the light that which we all instinctively know...murder happens, but easy access to advanced firearms is a multiplier. Its difficult to kill or main 100 people in an evening with a knife, hammer or rock.

I would think that on this, we could all be in agreement?

[lineygoblue]

I have not attended an 'evangelical' church nor am I sure why that matters.

It matters because in this, and other discussions held here you've shown that you know very little about the people you refer to as "evangelical Christians".

And by definition, an "evangelical Christian" would be a follower of Christ who believes in the Great Commission. "Go ye into all the world".. etc. That's evangelism. Its at the core of Christianity. Catholics can be described as "evangelical" almost as much as Baptists. Both support missionaries all over the world.

So, I think your statements and opinions about Christians come from a lot of ignorance.

[Dr. Strangelove]

It matters because in this, and other discussions held here you've shown that you know very little about the people you refer to as "evangelical Christians".

And by definition, an "evangelical Christian" would be a follower of Christ who believes in the Great Commission. "Go ye into all the world".. etc. That's evangelism. Its at the core of Christianity. Catholics can be described as "evangelical" almost as much as Baptists. Both support missionaries all over the world.

So, I think your statements and opinions about Christians come from a lot of ignorance.

Well okay. You can lecture me, call me ignorant, blast me all you want. It won't change the actual poll, sir, that a greater percentage of evangelicals hold negative views of gays than Muslims. And evangelicals are far more negative than more traditional Protestant denominations.

Evangelical missionaries were very influential in trying to get Uganda to enact life sentences and the death penalty for gays a couple years ago. Only when the US and the EU started threatening sanctions did Uganda back down.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/29/uganda-death-sentence-gay-sex

[lineygoblue]

Well, if you'd rather put more value in the results of a poll, than have actual life experience among the people you criticize, then I guess that's fine with me. Someone once said there are none so blind, as is he who will not see.

And I'd really like to see where you put the "split" between "evangelicals" and "traditional Protestant denominations", .. when probably 100% of those who identify as Christians (including Catholics) believe in the Great Commission of Evangelism.

Digging into that maybe we can determine which faiths should be allowed to exist, and those those who should be denied existence. Right?

[hack]

Easy answer: none. But people don't get to decide that.

[iam416]

DSL:

Honestly, this is shameful fucking equivocation even by your standard. First, the stat you're using isn't apples to apples. You're comparing one portion of christians to muslims. christians to muslims is the proper comparison, and in that context, to no one's fucking surprise, American christians are more tolerant than American Muslims. The proper way to compare evangelicals is to look at the various breakdowns of muslims. How do Sunnis feel? Or Wahhabis if you want to get inside of the Sunnis? Shias? What about the those follow sharia law? The proper comparison is christians to muslims, but you don't do that. You go out of your way to use a bullshit statistic. And why? To equivocate - to say yeah, muslims don't like gays...but evangelicals! evangelicals!. Why anyone would want to defend some of the absolute medieval shite perpetrated by a significant number of the world muslim population is totally beyond me. Perhaps you can explain why you want to do that.

With respect to Uganda, it's pretty well established that Africa is generally hostile to gay folks. I think somewhere on the order of 70% of African countries have something that makes practicing gayness illegal with varying degrees of punishment. Uganda's law is, of course, total bullshit. It's the same as killing someone, so it's qualitatively different from, say, Saudi Arabia's human rights atrocities. But it blows. However, to attribute that to "evangelicals" because 3 nutjob pieces of shit lobbied for it in Uganda is awful. Even by your standards. I don't attribute gay bigotry to muslims because of a few people's actions....I attribute gay bigotry to muslims because of significant worldwide condemnation of gay folks by muslim STATES.

Whatever your feeling on "religion", it's plain that there are significant differences between the hundreds. To my mind, it's akin to systems of government and Churchill's quote on democracy being awful but the best we have. There are some really fucking shitty religions out there and no amount of equivocation will change that.

[Ghengis Jon]

[Wild Hoss]

There are some really fucking shitty religions out there and no amount of equivocation will change that.

I found this quote to be really funny for some reason.

Some religions are just Kia's, no gettin' around it!

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[iam416]

Should we just not have laws then? Because most laws I am aware of get broken...some quite frequently, based on our prison population.

Don't be fatuous, Hoss. You know, as well as I, that there are two types of laws -- malum in se and malum prohibitum. Anyone who has watched Legally Blonde knows this. The former laws are laws because they are morally wrong. You know, murder and such. We, as a society, have decided that murder, rape, robbery, etc are wrong and that those who commit those crimes should be punished even if we can't catch them all.

Malum prohibitum laws are more or less policy-based laws -- they don't, at all, rest on any sort of moral base. When you're talking about those laws -- most often regulatory laws -- then efficacy and outcomes damn well fucking matter. There are, e.g., a lot of people who question drug laws on this basis -- and rightly so, IMO. Right now roughly 10% of homicides are committed with legally purchased firearms. So, in theory, you have laws that ought to keep guns out of the hands of bad folks if, say, the bad folks followed the law.

Further increased gun ownership does not lead to increased homicide rates in the US, at least if you're looking at it in terms of race. White folks own guns at more than 2X the rate black folks do. Black folks commit murders with guns at more than 3X the rate white folks do. That is, of course, just another way of saying homicide are primarily environment driven. White folks tend to use guns to commit suicides, which account for the significant majority of gun deaths in the US.

[hack]

What is Giant Meteor's plan for economic revival?

If you want a way to rank religions by the amount of hate they generate, I think any sending missionaries abroad get extra points. Missionaries are awful. Have seen this for myself in real time. Not just Western ones. Some Korean ones are fucking terrible. I recommend the book The Tenth Parallel by Eliza Griswold.

[Dr. Strangelove]

DSL:

Honestly, this is shameful fucking equivocation even by your standard. First, the stat you're using isn't apples to apples. You're comparing one portion of christians to muslims. christians to muslims is the proper comparison, and in that context, to no one's fucking surprise, American christians are more tolerant than American Muslims. The proper way to compare evangelicals is to look at the various breakdowns of muslims. How do Sunnis feel? Or Wahhabis if you want to get inside of the Sunnis? Shias? What about the those follow sharia law? The proper comparison is christians to muslims, but you don't do that. You go out of your way to use a bullshit statistic. And why? To equivocate - to say yeah, muslims don't like gays...but evangelicals! evangelicals!. Why anyone would want to defend some of the absolute medieval shite perpetrated by a significant number of the world muslim population is totally beyond me. Perhaps you can explain why you want to do that.

With respect to Uganda, it's pretty well established that Africa is generally hostile to gay folks. I think somewhere on the order of 70% of African countries have something that makes practicing gayness illegal with varying degrees of punishment. Uganda's law is, of course, total bullshit. It's the same as killing someone, so it's qualitatively different from, say, Saudi Arabia's human rights atrocities. But it blows. However, to attribute that to "evangelicals" because 3 nutjob pieces of shit lobbied for it in Uganda is awful. Even by your standards. I don't attribute gay bigotry to muslims because of a few people's actions....I attribute gay bigotry to muslims because of significant worldwide condemnation of gay folks by muslim STATES.

Whatever your feeling on "religion", it's plain that there are significant differences between the hundreds. To my mind, it's akin to systems of government and Churchill's quote on democracy being awful but the best we have. There are some really fucking shitty religions out there and no amount of equivocation will change that.

Could you provide a single quote from me in which i defend murdering gays in foreign countries? Honestly, YOU want to talk about shameful shit? And this is the 3rd or 4th time you've accused me of supporting countries that treat gays as subhumans. For someone who claims to despise trolling and people who can't have reasonable debates, I don't know how you expect to have a decent conversation if you are going to immediately claim I defend/support the countries that commit these atrocities. I doubt there's been anyone here that criticized and bashed Saudi Arabia as much as I have and America's sickening support of the Kingdom.