Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Wild Hoss]

Back in the 80's I lived about 10 miles south of Orlando.

I remember reading about a local police officer who got into a gun fight with a robber. The robber had a 9mm automatic and several loaded clips. The officer had a .38.

The officer was shot and killed by the robber, when the officer stopped to reload. The robber walked right up to him and shot him dead.

The police departments all went to automatic weapons after that.

...and police departments have a need for magazine-fed weapons. The pubic at large does not.

[Ghengis Jon]

There's been one, maybe two posts here regarding the elephant in the room ...... namely the debate regarding the protection of Civil Liberties versus the need for improved Counterterrorism Policies.

Mateen was an Islamic terrorist and our current safety net for identifying him as such and preventing him from carrying out the terrorist act he perpetrated failed us ....... Jon, I am waiting for your response.

IMHO, civil liberties are paramount. If the feds want to gather info from social media and other public areas where drooling idiots regularly post, fine. But unless you've got a damn good court sanctioned reason, stay out of my life (email, telephone, skype, browsing history, purchasing history, etc). I'll take my risk against terrorist attacks.

The internet has seemingly removed all inhibitions concerning discourse. There are plenty of places to identify potential evil doers. Its not like they hide. If not on the internet, they seem to scream to the world (usually at work) about their intentions or their fealty to terrorist organizations. The difficult part is what to do and still preserve due process.

I'm not at all confident that the gov't will do anything of value. Either they do nothing (like this Pulse incident) or completely disregard the Constitution as in the Jose Padilla case. Our gov't is so paranoid about secrecy that it is counterproductive. No notice (other than 'the threat level has been moved to orange') ever comes out. Documents are excessively redacted. For example, the 911 Commission report and the Patriot Act have classified provisions. Why? The gov't claims that it is to protect sources. That's bullshit. Large sections of the redacted 911 report is about to be released. When that comes out, lets see if it was for security reasons or just to shield embarassing positions/activities. Same for the Patriot Act - if the law is intended to protect America and its citizens, why are sections classified? This is not a black budget discussion, its about what citizen's are empowering the gov't to do. Worst of all, we leave it to so-called 'representatives' to make that decision. And allow ourselves to be legally kept from knowing exactly what.

Its up to the citizens to decide what needs to be done. Giving up our civil rights on the gov't assurance we'll be protected and there won't be any abuse is a world class hallucination. Citizens need, for the first time, specifically tell Congress what to do. But there's no grass roots activity on this front, other than a few agenda driven think tanks.

[Wild Hoss]

Not going to work? How far would you go? I can think a few ways to round these weapons up or at least create a huge dent in the black market supply after you have done what you are calling for legislatively.

Is something like this - a national program to remove these weapons from public hands - an intrusion on your civil liberties?

I would go as far as I stated...but I might as well be asking for a moonbase.

By the letter of the law, all restrictions on arms are an intrusion. So, technically, I should be able to own a chain gun, flamethrower, a TOW missile, what have you. We accept already that some of these things are simply too dangerous for possession by the public at large, so further steps are possible I guess. Theoretically.

[The Oracle]

There's got to be more than one thing to be done. SOME "Civil Liberties" will need to be given up by people on terrorist lists and some will need to be given up by those who feel they need semi automatic weapons to defend their home.

[Jeff Buchanan]

There is no question about this ....... when an individual with no training in self defense (i.e, most civilians) is faced with any potential violent act, your best course of action is to flee.

Going to a firing range and learning to fire a hand gun is not getting trained in self defense. When confronting an individual with intent to harm you, unless you have been exposed to and are trained in close range combat with or without a weapon available to you, you are much more likely to end up the victim than the victor.

Have a plan to escape.

[Wild Hoss]

There's got to be more than one thing to be done. SOME "Civil Liberties" will need to be given up by people on terrorist lists and some will need to be given up by those who feel they need semi automatic weapons to defend their home.

Or we can turn public places into a psuedo-military state, with body-armored rent-a-soldiers everywhere. The cost of which will be added to every movie ticket and steak that you buy, under the presumption that some doofus with a GED and a federally-mandated $15.00 per hour salary is willing to take a bullet for you.

[Hannibal]

There is no question about this ....... when an individual with no training in self defense (i.e, most civilians) is faced with any potential violent act, your best course of action is to flee.

Going to a firing range and learning to fire a hand gun is not getting trained in self defense. When confronting and individual with intent to harm you, unless you have been exposed to and are trained in close range combat with or without a weapon available to you, you ar much more likely to end up the victim than the victor.

Have a plan to escape.

I agree with this, but when a guy has time to just sit there and reload you've got to wonder.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Thanks, Jon. Very balanced response to my question and we're getting at the meat of the debate.

What I like best about your post was the part stating we the people need to tell our representatives what we want them to do in this debate. The other part I liked is that you also stated there is no grass roots effort to do that ....... we are an uninvolved ans seemingly disinterested electorate when it comes to one of the most important issues of our time.

If you're not informed about the Patriot Act and all the important issues it raises on both sides of the debate, you are a part of the problem which is why I raised the issue in my original post.

[Rocky Bleier]

I understand the sentiment, I just don't think it happens at any rate where that is a reason to stop any legislation. It is kind of like when some of the administration would argue for torture user the Jack Bauer defense. They were arguing for a ticking time bomb and if you had to torture a guy for the combination would you do it? Well of course they would do it, but it wasn't a realistic scenario and they were arguing it to justify torturing low level operatives that really didn't have a clue.

I want the best possible chance of defending myself against attack, and I don't want to be a homicide statistic because the majority convinced a legislator to use the force of government to take that away from me. The probability or lack of probability doesn't really enter into it. People forget that a right is something a government can't take away from you without force. It is not given to you by a government.

[lineygoblue]

and police departments have a need for magazine-fed weapons. The pubic at large does not.

Put that robber in your house, with the 9MM, and you have a .38 that needs reloading after 6 shots, then lets discuss. Even worse, give him a buddy that is packing the same weapon he has.

Unless you're a former Ranger or Seal that never misses a target, you're in trouble.

[iam416]

By the letter of the law, all restrictions on arms are an intrusion. So, technically, I should be able to own a chain gun, flamethrower, a TOW missile, what have you. We accept already that some of these things are simply too dangerous for possession by the public at large, so further steps are possible I guess. Theoretically.

So are all restrictions on speech. I'm perfectly fine if the Court adopts a 2nd A jurisprudence that mirrors the 1st A. That strikes me as consistent, rational and appropriate. Seems like you'd agree.

[Rocky Bleier]

...and police departments have a need for magazine-fed weapons. The pubic at large does not.

My self-defense is not subject to your opinion or beliefs. Unless you are going to be my personal bodyguard, you really don't have a say in the matter.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I agree with this, but when a guy has time to just sit there and reload you've got to wonder.

The natural response to the attacks we are seeing is to cower, not withstanding the two limited examples of Geezer provided.

There is an evolving awareness and willingness on the part of authorities to conduct training in how to act in the face of an attack in a public place. I'm all for this and expanding this effort is absolutely an essential part of any National Counterterrorism strategy.

National authorities, despite the foolishness of it all, taught us how to potentially survive a Nuclear Attack from the Soviets in the 50s. This is a much more serious and very real threat that should pound home the need for some modicum of training in how to deal with these attacks.

That the Orlando Police may have bungled their immediate response (reportedly 3h to enter the building after the presence of an active shooter was confirmed ???) to the Mateen attack raises very serious questions as to the level of preparedness of police authorities to deal with this sort of thing. That's another issue that should be pounded home. Train the police to act once the attack is underway.

[iam416]

I think it would be of some use for folks in power to point out just how fucking much Sharia law hates gay folks. It'd be nice to point out that it ain't just some wackjob in Orlando--it's entire fucking countries...and lots of them. I think something like 10 countries in this world punish homosexuality with death and they're all predominantly one religion. I'd also like to see the generally anti-liberal, anti-western bullshit called out, too.

It's appalling, and those nations -- including the Saudis -- ought to be taken to task for it.

[Hannibal]

Bigot